October 9, 2007

Things not to tell al Qaeda. (I guess.)

1. We've cracked your intranet system. They'll have to turn it off.

2. We interrogate with waterboarding. They'll just waterboard each other until they can take it.

187 comments:

Bob said...

Unlike electric shocks with a stun gun, I don't think you can accustom yourself to waterboarding. I do know that techniques such as waterboarding are taught to volunteers for SERE (Survival Evasion Resistance Escape) training in the US military, not to accustom them to the effects, but to show the sorts of tortures that can be inflicted by our enemies. SERE is taught to members of air crews on reconnaissance missions and other intel types.

peter hoh said...

You mean it wasn't leaked by the New York Times? I'm shocked.

By the way, back during the first Bush administration, we let the Soviets know that we had tapped what they thought was a secret communication network.

Yachira said...

Waterboarding sounds like a great technique to use on the Jihadis.

And how about that tough old Khalid Sheik Mohammed? He lasted for two-and-a-half minutes until he started singing like a bird. Seems that CIA officers who subjected themselves to it lasted on average 14 seconds.

Personally, I think that waterboarding combined with the infamous Belly Slap is the right ticket...

http://abcnews.go.com/WNT/Investigation/story?id=1322866

hdhouse said...

There is always the plausible explanation that the purposeful leak of the the Bin Ladin tape was to set the stage for the Patreus/Crocker testimony. This administration has consistently used the terror card to focus attention and there is no reason to believe it wouldn't do so now.

I was equally less impressed with the WSJ article..particularly when the writer just had to slip in the "Scolds .... no pressure tactics are ever necessary" straw dog.

That kind of statement simply ends debate and makes the reader reach for a club.

rhhardin said...

Dewey passed up winning against Roosevelt by not revealing what he knew about breaking the Japanese diplomatic code, so that the Japanese would not get wind of it.

MadisonMan said...

How do we know that KSM cracked by waterboarding? Because the government told us so?

Gedaliya said...

There is always the plausible explanation that the purposeful leak of the the Bin Ladin tape was to set the stage for the Patreus/Crocker testimony.

What do you mean by the phrase "the purposeful leak of the Bin Laden tape"?

LarsPorsena said...

MM:
"How do we know that KSM cracked by waterboarding? Because the government told us so?"

What other source could it come from?
Al Jezeera??


The rumor I heard was when apprehended KSM's first words were "I'm not saying anything until I'm in New York and I have a lawyer."

Two minutes of 'surfing' and he couldn't shut up.

Roger said...

With respect to leaks please keep in mind that these leaks may be efforts to gain more intelligence. Perhaps we tend to assume all leaks are bad, but releasing some information may lead to more information being gained.

Cedarford said...

Bob - techniques such as waterboarding are taught to volunteers for SERE (Survival Evasion Resistance Escape) training in the US military. not to accustom them to the effects, but to show the sorts of tortures that can be inflicted by our enemies.

1. The techniques are not taught, they are inflicted on SERE candidates.

2. The SERE candidates may be volunteers. Many are not. They have to go because of the nature of their upcoming duty. They have a right to refuse, but there are career downsides.

3. The SERE candidates are not "tortured". They are given a very unpleasant experience about what it is like falling into the hands of an enemy (not AQ) that spares American prisoners lives, but experience a very unpleasant POW period and coerced interrogation. Waterboarding is not real torture - we have been doing it to certain Americans in the military for decades.

The Drill SGT said...

Roger said...
With respect to leaks please keep in mind that these leaks may be efforts to gain more intelligence.


Or disrupt operations, like:

"psst, did you know that Abdul gets cash from the CIA"

bad leak in terms of Abdul's long term health. AQI doesn't have those torture issues that we do, and good leak in terms of causing turmoil in the ranks. :)

The Drill SGT said...

In confirmation of Cedar's comments, I have been to the SERE short course.

waterboarding / dunking
physical and psych abuse
stress positions
cramped in a bamboo cage
water deprivation
food deprivation
cold therapy (water hoses and cold cells)

not fun, but "character building"

number one lesson: "everybody talks", just try to hold back operational material till it expires.

steve simels said...

Reality check:

The Bushies aren't in favor of torture because they think it's an effective tool.

They're in favor of torture because they're sociopaths and it gives them a hardon.

Slim999 said...

Well ... those are only things you wouldn't want to tell Al Queda unless your political goals require that Al Queda win.

The Democrats can't win if Bush wins (i.e., if America wins) ... so, they make every effort to ensure that Bush can't win (i.e., that America can't win.)

MadisonMan said...

I think you should add that the leak about the Al Qaeda intranet occurred because people in the White House couldn't keep their mouths shut. Here is the story.

Bob said...

Cedarford: I was in the US Navy 1980-1984, a Cryptologic Technician. I turned down the joys of volunteering for SERE school, so I'm not speaking from ignorance. I personally experienced no downside from turning down SERE; there were plenty of volunteers in those days.

Too many jims said...

I don't think whether a procedure is effective in getting information is relevant at all (and, in fact, distracts) to ascertaining whether the procedure is torture. It is either torture or it is not (or it is along some gray line). If effectiveness is part of the calculus as to whether something is torture then we can only be offended about what happened to U.S. servicemen in Vietnam because what was done to them was not effective enough.

AntonK said...

Steve Simels = lapdog and waterboy for MoveOn.org

Richard Fagin said...

At what point do we finally start prosecuting the leakers? There are any number of people in the governmentintelligence agencies that have essentially been at war with the Bush administration for at least the duration of the war in Iraq. The leakers are clearly breaking laws intended to criminalize disclosure of the very type of information such as the Bin Laden tape, the SWIFT terrorist finance tracking program, etc. the laws were intended to deal with.

If the leakers think they're whistleblowers instead of traitors, let 'em come forward and be public about who they are and why they're disclosing secret information.

The Drill SGT said...

MM,

I read the story and got this from it;

1. offered to the WH
2. WH requested it be provided to the National Counterterrorism Center

3 within minutes Federal intel agencies are downloading the file.
4. SITE responds with: "This confirms that the U.S. government was responsible for the leak of this document," Katz wrote in an e-mail to Leiter at 5 p.m.


MM, It seems to me that the NCTC put the info out in its stream to intel agencies, and the leak likely came from one of those. If it had been a direct WH leak, you bet the WaPo would have loved to paint a Scooter Libby story and a leak for FNC.

The Drill SGT said...

Bob: NSG?

antiphone said...

At what point do we finally start prosecuting the leakers?

You mean like Scooter Libby?

Bob said...

Drill Sgt.

NSGD Norfolk.

steve simels said...

AntonK said...
Steve Simels = lapdog and waterboy for MoveOn.org


You are so right, my friend.

Now if only I could get some of that Soros money I'd really have it going on!!!

The Drill SGT said...

8th Radio Research Field Station, Phu Bai, SVN

and

265th Radio Research Company, 101th AB

steve simels said...

"Imagine a person, tall, lean and feline, high-shouldered, with a brow like Shakespeare and a face like Satan, a close-shaven skull, and long, magnetic eyes of the true cat-green. Invest him with all the cruel cunning of an entire Eastern race, accumulated in one giant intellect, with all the resources of science past and present, with all the resources, if you will, of a wealthy government--which, however, already has denied all knowledge of his existence. Imagine that awful being, and you have a mental picture of Dr. Fu-Manchu, the yellow peril incarnate in one man."

-- Nayland Smith to Dr. Petrie,
The Insidious Dr. Fu Manchu,


Subsitute Bin Laden for Fu Manchu, and the above sounds hilariously like the rhetoric about the Mohammedan Menace that Ann's cultists spout here every day.

MadisonMan said...

Ms. Katz offered the site holding the OBL to the WH. The WH accepted, and added that the National Counterterroism Center should be included in the distribution. Leaking ensued.

The WH is beyond extremely naive not to realize that a secret such as this would not be kept once the genie was out of the bottle. They should have kept it to themselves.

The Drill SGT said...

MM,

yeah, and secret is not a secret if 2 people know...


however, I don't fault them on this. I KNOW the NYT would have loved a story like:

"Bush WH kept Intelligence community in the dark on critical information from Osama"

- sub headline: 911 Commission Chairman says we still haven't learned the importance of connecting dots

I think they did the right thing.

George said...

Steve--

It's easy here in the US to make fun of people who are freaked by Islamic fanaticism.

But check out this recent AP story..

A prominent Palestinian Christian activist was found dead on a Gaza City street Sunday, sending a shudder of fear through a tiny Christian community feeling increasingly insecure since the Islamic Hamas seized control last summer.
The body of Rami Khader Ayyad, the 32-year-old director of Gaza's only Christian bookstore, bore a visible gunshot wound to the head, and an official at Gaza's Shifa Hospital said he was also stabbed numerous times. Ayyad had been missing since Saturday afternoon.

Ayyad regularly received anonymous death threats from angry people who accused him of missionary work, a rarity among Gaza's Christians. His store, which is associated with a Christian group called the Palestinian Bible Society, was firebombed in April.

"We feel Rami was killed for his Christian faith," said Simon Azazian, a spokesman at the Bible Society's head office in Jerusalem.

That just none of our business. Who cares, so what....

Pogo said...

Yes, Simels,
OBL and his takedown of WTC 1 and 2 was hilarious, and just like a fictional movie serial character.

P.S. The Japanese in WW2 were funny guys, too. Torture, killing of babies, raping the women, starving surrendering soldiers to death. A real laff riot.

Simon said...

Without meaning to excuse the leak, it shouldn't be forgotten that it isn't the leak that's the proximate cause of the problem - it's the willingness of the media to run stories that anyone with a half-functional brain ought to realize is ill-advised (cf. the NYT's outing of the TSP). Granted, it isn't the MSM's burden to patch a leaky administration, but nor is it necessary to their mission to print everything they know or their privilege to abandon discretion.

steve simels said...

Pogo said...

Yes, Simels,
OBL and his takedown of WTC 1 and 2 was hilarious, and just like a fictional movie serial character.


Actually, what's hilarious is that you pee your pants at the thought of the scary brown people under your bed.

Enjoy Islamosfascism Awareness Week, tough guy!

Pogo said...

Yes, steve, I will.
I'm not surprised that you find mass murder so funny. The left was particularly good at it in the 20th century.

Here's a good one from Uncle Josef himself:
"What do you call one murder? A tragedy.
What do you call 30 million murders? A statistic."
God, he was funny.

Mao pretty much told the same joke, but doubled the number. It's even funnier that way.

garage mahal said...

Waterboarding sounds like a great technique to use on the Jihadis.

Ironic we used to prosecute war criminals for waterboarding Americans.

In confirmation of Cedar's comments, I have been to the SERE short course.

waterboarding / dunking
physical and psych abuse
stress positions
cramped in a bamboo cage
water deprivation
food deprivation
cold therapy (water hoses and cold cells)

not fun, but "character building"


So John McCain's life as a POW wasn't really torture so much as "character building". Have to remember that.

LarsPorsena said...

Mahal:

"Ironic we used to prosecute war criminals for waterboarding Americans."

Really?? Just who would that be?

Roger said...

Garage: the phrase "character building" is used by soldiers to describe any unpleasant, unnecessary or stupid project. Its an inside joke shared among troopers. No soldier would describe what McCain or the other guests of the Hanoi Hilton went through as character building.

steve simels said...

Bin Laden is as scary as Stalin and Mao?

Stop -- you're killing me.

Seriously, thanks for proving my point, Pogo.

You're a whiny, ridiculous little coward.

hdhouse said...

i have to chime in here. pogo, as many dumb things as you have said in the past this is right up there with your alltime dumbest.

your lack of knowledge in matters of history is breathtaking. your perspective is appalling.

Pogo said...

Re: "your lack of knowledge in matters of history is breathtaking."

Prove it.

Gedaliya said...

hdhouse says to Pogo:

your lack of knowledge in matters of history is breathtaking. your perspective is appalling.

Hmmm.

Pogo said that "The left was particularly good at [mass murder)in the 20th century."

No "lack of knowledge" there. That is a fact.

His Stalin quotation is accurate and true. And Pogo's observation about Mao is also true.

So, hdhouse...please be specific about what you mean when you say that Pogo's "lack of knowledge in matters of history is appalling."

Roger said...

One can only assume HD is getting his knowledge of history (presumably of communism) from Walter Duranty and not Robert Conquest.

Michael said...

antiphone: You mean like Scooter Libby?

Excerpted from: Sources: State Department official source of Plame leak

POSTED: 1:19 p.m. EDT, August 30, 2006
WASHINGTON (CNN) -- Former Deputy Secretary of State Richard Armitage was the source who revealed the identity of CIA officer Valerie Plame to syndicated columnist Robert Novak in 2003, touching off a federal investigation, two sources familiar with Armitage's role tell CNN.

Freder Frederson said...

So, hdhouse...please be specific about what you mean when you say that Pogo's "lack of knowledge in matters of history is appalling."

Well, first Pogo got the quote wrong, it is "one death [not murder] is a tragedy, a million [not thirty] is a statistic." By deliberately misquoting Stalin I assume that he is imputing 30 million murders to Stalin (and 60 million to Mao). These numbers are wildly exaggerated for both.

As for the left being particularly good at mass murder in the 20th century, I guess that is a fair assessment, but the right held their ground, continuing their proud track record of the 18th and 19th centuries. They had their two world wars which took almost 100 million lives in total (and spare me the "Nazis were socialists" nonsense). Then after WWII they had Idi Amin (whose initial coup was supported by the British), Pinochet (CIA supported) and countless other tinpot dictators in Asia, Africa and South America, many put in place by the U.S. to fight communism.

Freder Frederson said...

I think it was Pogo himself who said "we have met the enemy and he is us".

Considering all the apoligists for torture that have popped up recently, I think that quote is truer than ever.

And Cedarford is the last person who I want deciding what is or is not torture.

Freder Frederson said...

Former Deputy Secretary of State Richard Armitage was the source who revealed the identity of CIA officer Valerie Plame to syndicated columnist Robert Novak in 2003

You know it is possible for more than one person to leak something. In fact Novak himself says he had two sources and he has never confirmed who the second source was (it was Rove). We know that Libby and Rove were on the phone trying to get other reporters to get Plame's name out there. That is the lie Libby got caught in.

Give it up. He did it. He was guilty. Only the most blind partisan can ignore the plain facts.

Luckyoldson said...

Who actually believe, at this point in time, that the people we're capturing don't know what to expect?

This has been going on for 4 years and I have to assume the people we're dealing with know how to communicate.

Does anybody think our military doesn't know what THEY do?

The bigger question is this: How many NEW terrorists are we creating every time we (or Blackwater) torture or kill civilians?

*Osama killed 3,000 here and look how that's affected us.

Roger said...

Robert Conquest, whose ability as an historian of the Soviet Union far surpasses that of some of the commenters here, believe the number to be 20 million and possibly 50% higher. 30 Million is entirely possible as victims of communism under Stalin. That includes the collectivation period.

By all means, Fred, tell us upon what basis we should believe you over Robert Conquest (and at least two other scholars of the period). I didnt know you were an historian who spent 70 years of his life studying the Soviet Union.

Roger said...

Forgot to provide a link for statistics of the "hemoclysm:"
Its a compilation of studies of all political deaths (war, revolultion etc) of the 20th century: http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/warstat1.htm

Luckyoldson said...

Simon said..."..it isn't the leak that's the proximate cause of the problem - it's the willingness of the media to run stories that anyone with a half-functional brain ought to realize is ill-advised..."

You must be referring to Cheney, Rove, Armitage & Libby outing one of our covert agents to anybody who would listen.

Terrible, wasn't it?

Pogo said...

Re: " By deliberately misquoting Stalin"
Iwas using humor, son. Stalin wasn't into telling jokes much.

"These numbers are wildly exaggerated for both."
You are completely wrong. See The Black Book of Communism: Crimes, Terror, Repression, Robert Conquest, and Paul Johnson.

Your sources are...?

DBrooks17 said...

Roger, don't you know? GWB gave Robert Conquest a Presidential Medal of Freedom. Guess that makes him a Rovian neocon to the lefty apologists around here.

Luckyoldson said...

Pogo said: ""The left was particularly good at [mass murder)in the 20th century."

I love the way the wingnuts like Pogo throw the term; "left" around...as if the people he and others are talking about were in favor of gay marriage, a woman's right to choose, legalized drugs, gun control, conserving the environment, against torture (that's a good one), spying on fellow citizens, the death penalty, etc.

Is this the "left" you're talking about...Pogo?

What a hoot...

Roger said...

Would someone take the time to explain to LOS that "the left" to which Pogo refers means "communists." That is standard classification of political ideology and Pogo, I am sure, is not talking about the American political "Left" as mass murderers. You need to improve the construction of your strawmen, LOS--that one really sucked.

Trooper York said...

Johnny: [in a creepy voice] They're coming to get you, Barbara!
Barbara: Stop it! You're ignorant!
Johnny: They're coming for you, Barbara!
Barbara: Stop it! You're acting like a child!
Johnny: They're coming for you!
[points to the cemetery zombie]
Johnny: Look, there comes one of them now!
Barbara: He'll hear you!
Johnny: Here he comes now! I'm getting out of here
(The Night of the Living Dead 1968)

Luckyoldson said...

For those of you who constantly rib the NYT's, I thought this was rather humorous:

Christian Group: Fox News Anchors Wear Shorter Skirts "Than Prostitutes Arrested On Cop Shows"

*Anybody here wonder what Malkin and Hannity talk about while they're doing each other? (Probably whine about the Clintons)

Trooper York said...

Ikol: [Gedren's fortress continues to shunt aside the Talisman's earthquakes and storms. In her throne room... ] Majesty, the Talisman is almost beyond control. We must bury it in the dark before it is too late.
Queen Gedren: It'll be buried when I have no further use for it, and that time shall come with the end of time itself.
(Red Sonja 1985)
Ikol: *It will kill us all.* Majesty, what do you want? Our vaults are brimming with gold. Great kingdoms live in terror of us! *What more is there?*
Queen Gedren: The *world,* Ikol! Today we took the kingdom of Toktyl. But I have wider claims, and the Talisman will enforce them!
Ikol: Madness. There will be no world.
[flees the throne room]
Ikol: ... THERE WILL BE NO WORLD!
[Gedren laughs amid the chaos]

SGT Ted said...

The lefties here are now downplaying and denying the established historical record of Communist murders, which is to be expected; they have always denied it, when they weren't excusing it. What's next, Holocaust denial?

If they can't aknowledge an historical fact, their accusations of criminal activity by ChimpyBusHitler are then suspect, no?

jeff said...

"You must be referring to Cheney, Rove, Armitage & Libby outing one of our covert agents to anybody who would listen."

Man. That poor, poor, extremely deceased horse just can not catch a break.

steve simels said...

SGT Ted said...

The lefties here are now downplaying and denying the established historical record of Communist murders, which is to be expected; they have always denied it, when they weren't excusing it. What's next, Holocaust denial?


Actually, Holocaust denial is Pat Buchanan's thing. Amazing he's still allowed out in polite society, let alone in the so-called liberal media.

Trooper York said...

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
[British reporters are laughing at Roy Cohn and David Schine]
British reporter #1: [laughing] Are we to understand that The Maltese Falcon and The Thin Man are actually Maxist propaganda?
British reporter #2: [mocking] Mr. Cohn, is William Karl Marx or Trotsky would you say?
British reporter #3: [mocking] Is Asta Lenin or Engels?
British reporter #2: Mr. Cohn, do you intend to burn the books?
British reporter #1: [mocking] Mr. Schine, have you READ the books?
(Citizen Cohn 1992 TV movie)

Luckyoldson said...

Roger said..."Would someone take the time to explain to LOS that "the left" to which Pogo refers means "communists."

Geeeee, ya think so, Dickhead?

(Then why is it that from time to time, we can read Sloan, Pogo and others throw out the term; "communist" when referring to any kind of governmental assistance program (socialists is a fav, too) or at those who disagree with Bush about damn near anything.)

But...golllleeee, please feel free to pass on any other really important information or clarifications.

MadisonMan said...

That poor, poor, extremely deceased horse just can not catch a break.

Sandy Berger is still walking next to it.

George said...

It's harder, it seems, to talk about present day horrors than it is to reminisce about the good ol' days.

Mass beheadings are al-Qaeda's new trick....

Locals fleeing the area said the attack started at 10 in the morning and the shooting didn't stop until after 5 in the evening. Al-Qaeda militants who are mostly Afghans and non-Iraqi Arabs killed dozens of the locals; some were beheaded and their heads were put on top of their chests; among them were women and children.

One woman who was fleeing the fighting added:

The people of Hor Rijab turned against al-Qaeda but since there was no support for them al-Qaeda returned back, broke into the homes and slaughtered men, women and children. And the Americans did nothing…

From iraqthemodel...

I also read somewhere else that the terrorists execute the children first...in front of their parents.

This is what we are fighting to stop. Or, perhaps, are supposed to be fighting.

By the way, the 2006 Mao biography by J. Chang estimates that he was responsible for more than 60 million deaths. How? He exported 99% (or so) of his country's agricultural products in order to finance his nuclear weapon's program and arms modernization efforts.

cyrus pinkerton said...

From the website Roger cites:

By the time he wrote The Great Terror: A Re-assessment (1992), Conquest was much more confident that 20 million was the likeliest death toll.

This is fairly close to the estimates I've seen in my reading.

Luckyoldson said...

jeff,
You mean the one who was convicted?

Or Novak?

Trooper York said...

Engineer: If they were to give me two more excavators, I'd be a year ahead of the plan by now.
Gen. Yevgraf Zhivago: You're an impatient generation.
Engineer: Weren't you?
Gen. Yevgraf Zhivago: Yes, we were, very. Oh, don't be so impatient, Comrade Engineer. We've come very far, very fast.
Engineer: Yes, I know that, Comrade General.
Gen. Yevgraf Zhivago: Yes, but do you know what it cost? There were children in those days who lived off human flesh. Did you know that?
(Doctor Zhivago 1965)

cyrus pinkerton said...

Trooper York,

Hey, there's always next year!

Michael said...

Freder Frederson: We know that Libby and Rove were on the phone trying to get other reporters to get Plame's name out there. That is the lie Libby got caught in.

Wilson lied to Nicholas Kristof of the New York Times, telling him, "I'm told by a person involved in the Niger caper that more than a year ago the vice president's office asked for an investigation of the uranium deal, so a former U.S. ambassador to Africa was dispatched to Niger."

He also lied about what he learned in Niger.

If he, like you, wasn't such shameless liar, no one would have had to debunk his lies and show him for the liar that he is.

Trooper York said...

Thanks cyrus, check the other thread for the Yankee recap. Let's go Rockies.

jeff said...

"Then why is it that from time to time, we can read Sloan, Pogo and others throw out the term; "communist" when referring to any kind of governmental assistance program (socialists is a fav, too)"

communism
A theory which advocates a state of society in which there should be no private ownership, all property being vested in the community and labour organized for the common benefit of all members; the professed principle being that each should work according to his capacity, and receive according to his wants.

Socialism
Economic system which is based on cooperation rather than competition and which utilizes centralized planning and distribution.

governmental assistance program: take money from those who have it and put it in a communal pool to be more evenly distributed.

There you go, Lucky.
Always happy to help. Surprised you didn't already know this from all that book reading you do.

Trooper York said...

Or where you talking about the commies. Or the Red Sox. Same thing really.

Luckyoldson said...

George said..."It's harder, it seems, to talk about present day horrors than it is to reminisce about the good ol' days. Mass beheadings are al-Qaeda's new trick...."

And yet another right wing talking point, thrown out to illicit the standard jingoistic response from the ultra-patriotic supporters of Bush's war.

And what do you think the Iraqi people think of the massive bombing campaign they experienced (remember "shock and awe?") or Blackwater indiscriminately spraying an area with machine gun fire?? (17 dead at last count)

How many innocent Iraqi civilians do you think have died at the hands of America, via our invasion and occupation, compared to these atrocities you mention? (25,000-50,000-100,000??)

And every one of the dead civilians have plenty of relatives to carry on the fight or seek revenge...they weren't even a part of...before we invaded.

A sovereign nation, an illegal invasion...period.

Freder Frederson said...

You are completely wrong. See The Black Book of Communism: Crimes, Terror, Repression, Robert Conquest, and Paul Johnson.

See Gulag by Anne Applebaum which is less driven by absolute anti-communist ideology. She had access to more Kremlin records than ever before. Her numbers (10-12 million) also make more sense considering the known Russian death toll in World War II (more than 20 million), as well as the millions killed in World War I and the Civil War, and the simple fact that if Stalin (and Lenin before him) had killed as many as you claim before WWII (when the worst purges occurred), the Soviet Union simply wouldn't have been able to have raise the largest army the world has ever seen and lose more men than any army ever has in the history of mankind (and still kick Germany's ass all the way back to Berlin).

jeff said...

So your saying that he "only" killed 10-12 million, so no big deal? Not really THAT bad of a system?

Freder Frederson said...

The lefties here are now downplaying and denying the established historical record of Communist murders, which is to be expected; they have always denied it, when they weren't excusing it. What's next, Holocaust denial?

I'm not denying or downplaying anything, just saying that 30 million murders attributed directly to Stalin is probably a vast exaggeration.

Luckyoldson said...

jeff,
I know the difference, you idiot.

Maybe you should throw your definitions at Sloan, Pogo and others who are apparently confused.

And, as for he use of the term; "left," don't tell me the wingnuts here don't lump everybody with whom they disagree as being just that.

Just read through comments over the past few week or months and see ho many times you run across "left," "lefty," leftists"...and of course "libs," "liberals" and Sloan's favorite: Un-American.

steve simels said...

The only reason the wingnuts give a rats ass about how many people Stalin and Mao killed is because they think it gets them off the hook for the Holocaust.

Luckyoldson said...

Trooper York said..."Or where you talking about the commies. Or the Red Sox. Same thing really."

Finally...a logical and informed voice in the wilderness.

Say bye-bye to Joe.

Ann Althouse said...

Cue the response that Hitler was a socialist.

jeff said...

"jeff,
I know the difference, you idiot.

Maybe you should throw your definitions at Sloan, Pogo and others who are apparently confused."

Then you probably shouldnt be asking the questions.

Luckyoldson said...

Michael,
It really takes some balls to whine about Wilson's supposed "lies" (and yet another right wing talking point), considering what we've heard from the Bush administration for the past 7 years. (WMD, torture, wiretapping, etc.)

Which of the two has had the most negative affect on American?

Bush's lies...or Wilson's?

Roger said...

Fred: again, why you chose to rely on a reporter, Anne Applebaum, rather than a distinguished historian, Robert Conquest escapes me. I rely on historians for historical research, and reporters like Applebaum for reporting. And to be clear, Conquest as Cyrus says, is confident of 20 M dead but also notes it could be as much as 50% higher. The link cited above lists estimates by all sources without political commentary.

It should also be noted that Conquest, when he published his initial histories in the 1960s and 1970s was subject to the ad hominem attack "rabid anti-communist." As the Soviet records became available, his research was vindicated.

Pogo said...

Freder said: "probably a vast exaggeration"

You missed Stalin's joke, then.
10, 20, 30, whatever.
A statistic.
Just a statistic.
And what's 20 million between friends, especially when there are are factories to build and Kulaks to liquidate?

Al Qaeda killed just 3000 in NYC that day.
But you don't see Brave Sir Simels peeing his pants about Bin Laden though. What's 3000 anyway? A breath of air, and they're forgotten, right Steve?

Gotta hand it to the brave ones, like Simels and LOS. Not scared of little ol' numbers.

Trooper York said...

Lucky, I needed you bro. How can people root for a team whose best player is named Nixon. Jeez.

jeff said...

"The only reason the wingnuts give a rats ass about how many people Stalin and Mao killed is because they think it gets them off the hook for the Holocaust."

Problem with that statement (other than the breathtaking stupidity of it) is that the wingnuts were, and still am, on the other side of that war. It would (again) be the left that is siding up with the holocaust deniers. And (again) the left siding up with the ones that want to push the remaining Jews out of Israel. You will probably learn that in the next few years, when you get to high school.

Roger said...

Godwin's law flag thrown on Simels! (implicitly, of course)

Luckyoldson said...

jeff,
You're a frigging moron.

I didn't ask anybody any "questions."

I asked for a clarification of exactly WHO or WHAT Pogo was referring to when using the term "left." ("Is this the "left" you're talking about...Pogo?")

Yank your head out of your ass.

Trooper York said...

Plus the Yankees really don't have a chance until we get Mattingly off the bench. It's the curse of Donnie baseball. We started to win championships when he left, and started losing when he came back. Joe isn't the problem, Donnie's gotta go.

Luckyoldson said...

trooper,
I met Torre when he managed the Cardinals and he's one of the nicest (famous) people I've ever encountered.

We spent most of an evening slugging down drinks and eating hot wings at a restaurant called Culpepper's in the Central West End in St. Louis.

He went on to manage for a few years and people there still love the guy.

steve simels said...

I see that Pogo, who seriously thinks Bin Laden is as scary as Stalin and Mao combined, is back.

Apparently, every few minutes he has to take a break to change the pants he soils in fear while thinking about the satanic brown people under his bed.

jeff said...

Lucky at 12:07

"But...golllleeee, please feel free to pass on any other really important information or clarifications."

Apparently you did not ask a question, but rather requested additional information and clarification. I did so, per your request. Not a textbook definition of a question, but close enough so my comment still stands.

Trooper York said...

Joe is a great guy, from Brooklyn ya know, and had a tough early life. I always go to his dinner/golf tournament to benefit battered woman's shelters. But twelve years is a long time and sometimes it time for a change. He will land on his feet. His Yankee tenure puts him in the Hall of Fame. We couldn't have won the way we did without him, but he wouldn't have won the way he did without a real owner who would back him up money wise, talent wise, etc. With our new young pitching, I hope we get someone a little more solicitous of tender young arms. I wish George Bamberger was still around.

Trooper York said...

In fact Joe Torre is the guy who should really run for president. There are a lot of people in different positions of leadership in our society who would do alot better than the clowns who are running on both sides of the aisle. Just a thought from a disgruntled
(Yankee Fan)

George said...

Well, luckyold...

I forgot to add that the Wall St. Journal reports that al-Qaeda in Iraq is putting peoples' heads in vises, gouging out eyes. Ho hum.

I guess we should go home.

Plus, the Iranians are sending men, arms, and money into Iraq, Afghanistan, and Lebanon.

None of our business.

I still can't understand why ol' Ab had to meddle in the affairs of sovereign states way back when. What folks down south did with their property was none of his business.

cyrus pinkerton said...

governmental assistance program: take money from those who have it and put it in a communal pool to be more evenly distributed.

Jeff, are you a speechwriter for Bush?

Luckyoldson said...

trooper,
For years, I couldn't root for the Yankees because...well, who COULD root for a team with an owner like George. (I'm from St. Louis so I'll always be a diehard Cardinal fan.)

But, then...out of nowhere, George became one of the great owners ever.

I don't know if he just got older and closer to moving on or had some kind of "experience," but whatever it was...it worked out for Yankee fans, his players and his manager.

Luckyoldson said...

George said..."...al-Qaeda in Iraq is putting peoples' heads in vises..."

*Hey, so did Joe Pesci in Casino and we didn't invade Las Vegas.

And as for your other comment: "None of our business."

You hit it right on the head. We should have NEVER gone in in the first place.

There are probably heads in vices elsewhere in the world, too...and we can't oversee or control the terror and atrocities committed by everybody everywhere.

Trooper York said...

George is the kind of guy you hate if he's running the other team, but you gotta love him if he's running your team. He acts like a fan, that's both good and bad. The guys in Boston basically copied him as did Moreno from the Angels, pay the money and get the team you need. Torre's tenure is the longest in the major leagues currently and nothing lasts forever. If you want to be in the game ante up and deal the cards. Otherwise stand in background and complain, like the rest of the losers.

Luckyoldson said...

George,
Please...tell me you're not trying to compare George W. Bush to Abraham Lincoln.

Please...??

jeff said...

"Jeff, are you a speechwriter for Bush?"

Is there something I have stated that your feel is exclusively reserved by or for Bush? You have noticed I have not asked anyone if they were a speech writer for Stalin, as that would be (as yours was) a very stupid question.

jeff said...

"governmental assistance program: take money from those who have it and put it in a communal pool to be more evenly distributed."

You disagree with that definition? How would you define it?

Revenant said...

I don't know if it is possible to accustom yourself to waterboarding or not, but the idea of Al Qaeda operatives waterboarding each other brings a smile to my face anyway.

I really do wish people would stop leaking information about our intelligence practices, though. The Justice Department needs to get serious about tracking down and prosecuting the people who do that.

Luckyoldson said...

trooper,
Baseball owners have more money than God.

That's why they will never allow anybody to see the "books" and why, even as they bitch and whine about how much money they're losing...they only sell the team when they can at least triple or quadruple their initial investment...and that's after dragging out profits and write-offs against other company's they also own...for years on end.

And I know you're aware of the fact that George bought the Yankees for about 8 million bucks (and it's now worth about 1 billion)...from CBS...which tells you how bright CBS is.

Pogo said...

Brave Sir Simels, destined to be on the wrong side of history his entire life.

The American Left and some Democrats and liberals refused to see what was happening in Russia (e.g. Duranty and the NYTimes got a Pulitzer for backing Stalin's view), denied what was happening in China under the Cultural Revolution, sat on North Vietnam's side (Jane Fonda), ignored the concern about genocide in Vietnman and Cambodia (and still deny it, e.g. John Kerry), denied that Russia was our enemy or that they wished us ill in any way, and now deny that Radical Islam desires a world caliphate and to kill all infidels.

The truly brave ones, like Simels, carry water for them, blaming those shouting the warning for 'peeing their pants' (and to be sure, he uses that phrase so often I am convinced it must arise from personal experience).

Luckyoldson said...

jeff said..."governmental assistance program: take money from those who have it and put it in a communal pool to be more evenly distributed."
You disagree with that definition? How would you define it?

Well, you might want to eliminate the term; "take."

Most socialistic societies "tax" their citizens, based on their income levels, using the proceeds to help out those who are in need.

*You do realize that many of our most successful corporations pay little if any taxes at all, and that many of our wealthiest citizens also pay little if any taxes because of write-offs, shelters, etc.

Luckyoldson said...

Pogo,
Jane Fonda?

Good God...you're are such a right wing suckass.

Trooper York said...

Lucky, the worst culprits are the KC Royals who get tons of revenue sharing money from the Yankee's and the Red Sox and don't spend a dime. Talk about your communism. The money is there for the owners to spend since they never ever made so much. George fell into it with CBS. But it was really insider trading. Michael Burke was a Yankee insider who brokered the original deal for CBS from Topping and Webb. He tried to use George as a pigeon who would put up the money and shut up. But as one of the minority partners said "There's nothing so limited as being a limited partner of George Steinbrenner."

Luckyoldson said...

jeff said..."...I have not asked anyone if they were a speech writer for Stalin..."

Now that would have been the kind of job to keep one on pins and needles.

"Sorry, boss..."

CHOP-CHOP...or...SQUEEEEEZZZZEEE-POP!

steve simels said...

Pogo said...

... Radical Islam desires a world caliphate and to kill all infidels.


You know what I desire? A houseboat on the Thames. It ain't gonna happen, either.

Of course, it is some consolation for me that the consuming fear of the Mohammedan Menace keeps you up at nights.

What a pathetic little coward you are....

George said...

Luckyold--

Yes.

Lincoln's decision to wage war on the South was wildly controversial, makes today's debate seem like a tea party.

Lincoln's 'management' of the war, until he found Grant, was poor. (Of course, Grant was a butcher.)

Lincoln's stated purpose in waging war was to keep the Union together, not because he thought black people deserved equal rights.

You know, Lucky, Bush might even be better than Lincoln...he believes those little tan people deserve human rights.

(Of course, Bush is inarticulate, but no one's perfect.)

jeff said...

"Well, you might want to eliminate the term; "take.""

Well, it isnt voluntary, so I think "take" would be the correct word.

"Most socialistic societies "tax" their citizens, based on their income levels, using the proceeds to help out those who are in need."

No they don't. They say they do, but they don't. They use the proceeds to do whatever the hell they want to do with them. Maybe some trickles down to those in need.

"You do realize that many of our most successful corporations pay little if any taxes at all, and that many of our wealthiest citizens also pay little if any taxes because of write-offs, shelters, etc."

How many people work for those successful corporations? How much tax do they pay? How much in the way of goods do they buy? How much tax is collected in that purchase? How many people are employed producing those goods? How much tax do they pay?
The top 1% earners paid 39% of federal income tax.
The top 10% paid 71% of the federal income tax.
They need to work on those tax shelters of yours.

Luckyoldson said...

George,
Look up the word; "delusional" and see if you're depicted in a picture with your up Bush's ass.

Anybody who has the audacity to compare G.W. Bush to Abe Lincoln has mental problems that I'm not equipped to deal with.

Check with Maxine, she appears to have plenty of meds to share.

Pogo said...

What, Steve, no pants peeing reference this time?

Holland is close to giving in to the radical Islamists there, and cannot even protect their own government officials from them, much less average citizens like Theo Van Gogh or Ayaan Hirsi Ali.


the Dutch exodus
"...figures showing that an exodus of native-born Dutch in search of a new life abroad has reversed immigration flows for the first time since the Second World War.

Last year, more people left the Netherlands than arrived, despite low unemployment and the highest per-capita income of any major country in Europe.

The flight is not of frustrated young people in search of better prospects, but of lawyers, accountants, computer specialists, nurses and business people. They have been applying for visas to the English-speaking world: Australia, New Zealand and Canada."

Trooper York said...

Lucky, the Cards. Augie Busch made Adolph Coors look like Rosa Parks. Way to compartmentalize baby! I'm proud of ya man.

Trooper York said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
jeff said...

"Anybody who has the audacity to compare G.W. Bush to Abe Lincoln has mental problems that I'm not equipped to deal with."

I think the point is that during a part of the Lincoln presidency, many people would consider you insane for thinking Lincoln would be one of the two greatest presidents of The United States. With history, comes perspective. Hard to say how history will judge the current president. Just have to wait a few decades to see.

Trooper York said...

Two best trades ever for the cards:
Cards: Orlando Cepeda for Ray Saydecki
Yankees: Roger Maris for Charley Smith
I don't count the Lou Brock trade because that was staight up theft.

Trooper York said...

Misprint there, scratch Yankees sub Cards. Sorry Teacher.

Roger said...

Jeff: History will make its judgments based on what the mid east looks like in 25 years. It is interesting to look at the heated rhetoric surrounding the Reagan SDI and theater nuclear forces deployments; but those two things were among the factors that brought about the end of the cold war. Anyone who claims to know the future is a charlatan and a fool.

An Edjamikated Redneck said...

There are probably heads in vices elsewhere in the world, too...and we can't oversee or control the terror and atrocities committed by everybody everywhere.


Unless there is a Democrat in teh White House, right LOS?

Then we can invade any place we want, whether we have a strategic interest or not, right?

Or were Somalia and Bosnia Republican wars too?

Freder Frederson said...

I really do wish people would stop leaking information about our intelligence practices, though. The Justice Department needs to get serious about tracking down and prosecuting the people who do that.

When our government is committing human rights abuses and blatantly violating U.S. law and international treaties (while the President has the audacity to claim "we don't torture" and stand up in front of the U.N. and exprss concern about the human rights situation in other countries) I hope that more of our illegal, immoral and unethical intelligence practices come to light.

Unfortunately, I know it is too much to hope that those responsible for besmirching the good name of this country will actually be held to account for their crimes. Perhaps the best we can hope for is that one day Bush, Rumsfeld, Tenet, Gonzalez, Yoo, Stephen Cambone and others will be afraid to leave the country for fear of being arrested for war crimes.

steve simels said...

Glenn Beck today:

Iran has long been the puppet master in the Middle East. You don’t have to take my word for it. Just watch any episode of Law & Order. Use the thinking, you know, that helps them solve all the tough cases. Iran has the means, the motive, and the opportunity to try and destroy our American way of life by controlling the Middle East.

Looks like Pogo has found a soulmate.

Perhaps they can exchange diapers....

jeff said...

"Perhaps the best we can hope for is that one day Bush, Rumsfeld, Tenet, Gonzalez, Yoo, Stephen Cambone and others will be afraid to leave the country for fear of being arrested for war crimes."


You might want to add to that list, at least if we use your definition of war crimes. I'm not sure what former president and administration wouldn't make your list. Certainly every war president we have ever had would. Interesting that you include people who stated their opinions of the Geneva convention and how the law applies as possible war crime offenders. You do understand that the Geneva convention allows us to just shoot a lot of those people who are instead in Gitmo, right?

MadisonMan said...

The Justice Department needs to get serious about tracking down and prosecuting the people who do that.

It's not like they'd be hard to track down. The urls of the machines that accessed the data are known. You can just start at the White House and move from there.

Melinda said...

waterboarding / dunking
physical and psych abuse
stress positions
cramped in a bamboo cage
water deprivation
food deprivation
cold therapy (water hoses and cold cells)

not fun, but "character building"


Sounds like one of those human potential groups I experienced in the 1970's.

It changed my life. I'm a better person. In fact, I'm better than anyone else here.

hdhouse said...

sure pogo and gedaylia...

stalin, left. want to start there?

stalin sure has a lot more in common with george bush than jimmy carter. stalin a leftist? ohmygod...a liberal? hahahaha...you guys kill me!

hdhouse said...

it is so funny watching the uber-recht on this board foam at the mouth as they come to grips with the prospect of being landslided in a year. they have hapless candidates and no platform. the war is in the crapper, the mood of the people reflects what they see in george bush and his little lemmings...just a feckless disaster.

this is such good reading!

Pogo said...

Re: "this is such good reading!"


Pretty weak beer, house. Here I was waiting for some grand opus refuting my facts, but all I got was your lousy t-shirt.

I want a refund.

Roger said...

Geez, HD: is that the best cheese you got? You havent answered the question you were asked--where is Pogo wrong? Some days you are really on task and contribute quite a bit; today looks like your poo-flinging day.

jeff said...

"stalin, left. want to start there?"

I forgot about the deniability of the left. Yes, of course. Stalin wasn't one of those LEFTEST communists. In fact, that was the problem with communism. All those damn neo-cons running things.
Lenin, Stalin, Khrushchev, Brezhnev. All Republicans. If only someone like hdhouse could have run the country. Communism would have worked then, dammit!

As an example he would be good at it: "it is so funny watching the uber-recht"

Taking those with whom he disagrees with politically and intimating they are Nazi's. Because, really. What difference between the two could there actually be? One side throws people in the furnace, the other thinks flying airplanes into buildings is bad. Clearly two sides of the same coin.

AlphaLiberal said...

3. "Wanted Dead or Alive."

That was obviously bullshit. Bush is an enabler of the Saudi radicals subsidizing the violent al Qaeda types.

Roger said...

Gee Mr Alpha Lib: tell us all about that BFEE thing. Isnt where this relationship with the House of Saud started?

Zeb Quinn said...

This has counterintelligence written all over it.

AlphaLiberal said...

"BFEE?" I don't recognize the term.

I'm referring to Saud-coddling such as:
-Redacting all reference to Saudi Arabia from ... oh which report was that?
- Grounding all Americans on 9/11 but allowing the bin Laden family to fly out of the country (weird that, but I'm sure the wingnuts defend it).
- 19 of the hijackers were Saudis and rich Saudi families fund al Qaeda and friends, but Bush-Cheney focus their belligerence on Iraq and Iran.
- Saudis are the most foreign fighters and suicide bombers in Iraq, targeting American troops, but that goes unmentioned and un-denounced.

I could go on, but I could also argue with a turnip, probably with better result. Bush could skullfuck Ms America and you guys would defend him.

Roger said...

BFEE = Bush Family Evil Empire. There's hope for you yeet if you dont recognize the term; its an article of faith on some of the moonbat boards.

And for the record: I do NOT regard the Saudis as our friends nor allies and agree we should make life miserable for them. They are a major part of the problem not part of the solution. And I suspect the House of Saud is very happy Bin Laden and the Wahabbists are no longer in the Kingdom.

Now about that turnip....

jeff said...

"- Grounding all Americans on 9/11 but allowing the bin Laden family to fly out of the country (weird that, but I'm sure the wingnuts defend it)."
Might want to recheck your sources on that one. Who in particular did you hear defend that? Especially since it didn't happen.
http://www.snopes.com/rumors/flights.asp

Throwing out that nonsense makes everything else you say suspect.

AlphaLiberal said...

The turnip has come around.

Jeff, when my life allows leisure again, I will re-explore the Saudi flights. It was pretty widely reported and while I do put stock in Snopes' take, I'd like to hear more on that subject.

Saudis are attacking our troops in Iraq. Liberal troops and conservative troops, they're using them all for target practice.

Sure would be nice if we could all - lib and con - demand some attention to that little fact.

I have more links on my half-assed blog.

Roger said...

Might be worthwhile pointing out that while the Saud Clan are the ruling family in KSA, they ride the tiger of islamic fundamentalism. Throwing out the house of Saud could prove as disastrous as overthrowing the Shah of Iran. The KSA under wahabbi control and in charge of Arabian oil, would not be a good thing.

While the Saudis (and by that I mean the Saudi tribe) are bad, the alternatives are far worse. The Saudis are enlightened in comparison to some of the other Clans in the Kingdom. Theocracy rather than democracy would take root.

MadisonMan said...

BFEE

I thought it was a fatfingering of BEEF, in reply to a misread of pogo's beer statement. Thanks for the clarification.

Especially since it didn't happen.

More precisely, there is no evidence that it happened. (Cue Twilight Zone-ish music)

Revenant said...

You know what I desire? A houseboat on the Thames. It ain't gonna happen, either.

A more intelligent person than yourself would have realized that even if the Caliphate is an unattainable goal, the terrorists don't THINK it is an unattainable goal. Which means they're going to keep killing people -- and trying to kill us -- until we either eradicate them or force them to abandon their hopes.

Tim said...

"it is so funny watching the uber-recht on this board foam at the mouth as they come to grips with the prospect of being landslided in a year. they have hapless candidates and no platform. the war is in the crapper, the mood of the people reflects what they see in george bush and his little lemmings...just a feckless disaster."

I've seen pithier bumperstickers on derelect VW busses with more thought - albeit equally wrong.

Revenant said...

Saudis are attacking our troops in Iraq. Liberal troops and conservative troops, they're using them all for target practice. Sure would be nice if we could all - lib and con - demand some attention to that little fact.

Alpha, if you ever read a conservative blog or a warblog -- and Ann's is neither -- you'd know that the fact that Saudi nationals are attacking our troops in Iraq is news to nobody. The overwhelming majority of conservatives and war supporters either dislike the Saudis or openly wish for their destruction.

We would LOVE it if the media would wake up and actually start reporting the fact that most of the people we're fighting in Iraq are Saudis, Iranians, and Syrians, or people backed by Saudis, Iranians, or Syrians. Unfortunately the media is busy selling its "Iraq is in a civil war" story and certainly can't be bothered to take a reality check.

AlphaLiberal said...

"Theocracy rather than democracy would take root."

You're saying Saudi Arabia is a democracy or anywhere close to it? Geez, you guys are out to lunch.

And, no-one called for toppling the Saud. Are you saying we have to keep our soldiers in Iraq where Saudi's can blow them up so the monarchy is not offended?

Really, that's apparently Bush's plan. Ignore the 800-lb gorilla killing our troops. We're addicted to oil and they are our dealer.

Besides, Bush, Cheny and House of Saud all belong to the same international oil family. Oil is thicker than blood.

Freder Frederson said...

You do understand that the Geneva convention allows us to just shoot a lot of those people who are instead in Gitmo, right?

No it doesn't. That is simply a false statement. Nowhere does the Geneva convention allow the summary execution of anyone under any circumstances. Even if it did, the UCMJ prohibits it.

Roger said...

AL: I am NOT saying that KSA is a now a democracy--I spent a year in the Kingdom in 1988 and have first hand knowledge of that cesspool. What I said, perhaps not clearly, was that removing the house of saud would NOT result in a democracy replacing the monarchy, but rather more likely a theocracy.

And the international oil thing: thats a corollary to the BFEE--KSA oil is far less important to the US than it is to the rest of the world--less than 20 percent of US oil comes from the mid east.

jeff said...

"Besides, Bush, Cheny and House of Saud all belong to the same international oil family. Oil is thicker than blood."

See, you start talking reasonable and then you throw out stuff like that. Try to find someone here who likes the Saudi's. No one does. What do you suggest we do with them? Right now we have the Iranian government suppling and training people to blow up our troops. As despicable as SA is, the government isn't doing that. Like it or not, the world runs on oil. Not just the US, but the world. At the moment, SA is what passes for stability in that part of the world. What would you suggest we do about them?

jeff said...

"You do understand that the Geneva convention allows us to just shoot a lot of those people who are instead in Gitmo, right?

No it doesn't. That is simply a false statement. Nowhere does the Geneva convention allow the summary execution of anyone under any circumstances. Even if it did, the UCMJ prohibits it."

You have a non uniformed, non soldier captured while waging war. He doesn't represent any government and his "army" not only doesn't follow the Geneva convention, but doesn't recognize its existence. Yes, you can shoot them. We don't. The UCMJ (used to anyway) allow for a court martial and a execution. Again, we don't do that. But we could.

jeff said...

My point in any event is that people continue to insist we are bound to follow the Geneva convention. We are not bound if the other side isn't. That was kind of the point of putting it together. The last time a enemy of ours did follow it, more or less, was Nazi Germany. The incentive is supposed to be that both sides would treat their captives well for fear of what the other side would do in retaliation. The other side here cuts off heads. While I do not propose we do anything other than treat the captives humanly, we are not obligated to treat them with the requirements of the Geneva convention.

Trooper York said...

Joe Turner: What does Operations care about a bunch of damn books? A book in Dutch. A book out of Venezuela. Mystery stories in Arabic.
Atwood: Wait!
Joe Turner: What the hell is so important about...
[He stops as he sees the connection]
Joe Turner: Oil fields. Oil. That's it, isn't it? This whole damn thing was about oil! Wasn't it? Wasn't it?
Atwood: Yes, it was.
(Three Days of the Condor 1975)
(Sorry, I meant to post on the paranoia thread)

Cedarford said...

Ann Althouse said...
Cue the response that Hitler was a socialist.

Party spokesman Joseph Goebbels insisted in 1932 that the NSDAP was a "workers' party" and "on the side of labor and against finance".[34] Hitler said of the Nazis: "We are socialists, we are enemies of today's capitalistic economic system for the exploitation of the economically weak, with its unfair salaries, with its unseemly evaluation of a human being according to wealth and property instead of responsibility and performance";[35] however, he was clear to point out that Nazism "has nothing to do with Marxian Socialism," saying that "Marxism is anti-property; true Socialism is not."[36] He further said that "I absolutely insist on protecting private property... we must encourage private initiative".[37] Nevertheless, he wanted property to be regulated to make sure "benefit to the community precedes benefit to the individual".

The Germans who were in the Party insisted that they be called "National Socialists" - only their enemies used the phrase "Nazis". The truth is that the Nazis were a concretion of various political philosophies - collectivism, fascism, mysticism, German Romanticism, Eugenics, part Bolshevik, anti-corporatist, rabid environmentalists, animal rights cause believers....

But socialism was a strong, strong component.

And some of the Nazi's great successes under the banner of socialism survived the Nazis and were emulated by other countries:

1. Improvements to the Bismarkian health care and pension system.

2. The "People's Car" - Volkswagon types.

3. The Autobahn system.

4. Modern environmentalism, anti-smoking eforts, most nations following Germany's own trailblazing OSHA program.

5. Nazi anti-capitalist measures requiring banks and finaciers to serve the poor and working class, not just the rich, with access to finance. Mandated corporate profit sharing as agreed to between management and National Socialist Workers Councils.

6. And, alas, surviving because it works so well for the parties involved, the socialist-based military industrial complex. The Nazis pioneered that, and all countries with a robust military emulate them consciously or unconsciously.

Again, socialism was just one element of Nazi Germany,

Revenant said...

Besides, Bush, Cheny and House of Saud all belong to the same international oil family.

Most of our political establishment has close ties to the Saudis. The Saudis have spent their money well.

It would be nice to think that voting out Bush would allow us to get tough on the Saudis, but the reality is that it won't. The Clinton administration was buddy-buddy with them too, and our career diplomats are pretty much bought and paid for (the Saudis have a reputation for hiring retired diplomats for fantastic salaries -- kind of a preemptive bribe for those now serving).

If Hillary Clinton was willing to stand up in front of a microphone and say "the Saudis are killing American, and they need to be stopped by whatever means necessary" I would be the first in line to vote for her in 2008. But she's never going to say that.

lee david said...

I think that waterboarding must be one of the most effective advanced interrogation techniques I've ever heard of, and I wouldn't call it torture. I watched a video of its application. It doesn't cause physical pain to a properly restrained subject. It does cause an unavoidable instinctual physical panic reaction, the same one that causes a drowning swimmer (this could be your best friend, it doesn't matter) to wildly claw at a rescuer and in some cases pull him under. The mind has almost no ability to control this primal instinct to panic. It's like the gag reflex, you can't stop it, it's a pure physical reaction; hardwired. If the mind could control it a rational mind would know that you are useless to the interviewer dead and that you weren't going to drown. The subject never comes close to asphyxiation but the hardwired physical panic reaction, like the gag reflex, happens quickly and is unavoidable. Faced with the realization that you have absolutely no control of the panic reaction and that you take leave of your senses whenever it is induced, The rational brain decides that your next terror plot is a worthless bit of trivia compared to your own inability to avoid your own mindless, adrenalin fueled, panic attack. No physical harm, no mental harm, rearrangement of jihadist priorities, priceless.

Revenant said...

The truth is that the Nazis were a concretion of various political philosophies - collectivism, fascism, mysticism, German Romanticism, Eugenics, part Bolshevik, anti-corporatist, rabid environmentalists, animal rights cause believers....

What, no Jews this time? :)

Luckyoldson said...

jeff said...Hard to say how history will judge the current president. Just have to wait a few decades to see."

Yeah, right.

A few decades.

GFL.

Luckyoldson said...

Trooper,
The Edmonds pick up was monumental.

Luckyoldson said...

lee david said..."I think that waterboarding must be one of the most effective advanced interrogation techniques I've ever heard of, and I wouldn't call it torture."

Well, damn...thanks, Lee.

We'll pass that on to those being waterboarded...I mean, how could feeling as if you're going to drown, over and over again...possible be considered a form of..."torture?"

Maybe if they were yanking out finger and toenails...while they were being waterboarded...nawww, too messy.

Gedaliya said...

I think that waterboarding must be one of the most effective advanced interrogation techniques I've ever heard of...

Superb comment.

Gedaliya said...

What, no Jews this time?

That made me laugh out loud. The single most annoying person who posts in the comment section of this blog, even more annoying the Steve Simels, is Cederford.

Pogo said...

Second that, Rev.

Trooper York said...

Neal Schweiber: I'm Jewish. That's no cakewalk either. Last year, I was elected school treasurer. I didn't even run!
(Freaks and Geeks 1999)

Freder Frederson said...

Nazi anti-capitalist measures requiring banks and finaciers to serve the poor and working class, not just the rich, with access to finance.

Man, you're just a regular Mr. Potter aren't you?

As for the military-industrial complex. Hitler never could rein in the defense industry in Germany. Just compare the production figures of any war materiel (especially tanks or planes) in Germany during the war with the U.S. or the U.S.S.R and you will see who had managed the war economy much more effectively (not to mention developing an atomic bomb).

Freder Frederson said...

What, no Jews this time? :)

Of course not, Cedarford thinks they were 100% right about the Jews.

Seven Machos said...

I can't wait until the Democrats win the presidential election.

Think of how great life will be. For one thing, the homeless problem will go away. And the Iraq war will enjoy widespread public support.

hdhouse said...

actually 7nachos, the homeless problem will be addressed instead of ignored and Iraq will have an attempt at resolution instead of more of the same (crap).

I can't wait for a democrat either and watching the debate with that ship of fools singing good ship lollipop, you should be happy that at least one party has enough quality candidates to make up for the cyphers on stage tonight.

Seven Machos said...

Yeah, HD. I remember those years from 1992-2000 when the homeless people disappeared. And then the mean old Republicans forced them back on the streets again.

Will the Democrats bring the elixir of everlasting life and solve our gravity problems as well?

Jason said...

Other than improvements to the Bismarkian system, the Autobahn, the Volkswagon, labor safety initiatives, sensitivity to the humane treatment of animals, modern environmental preservation and beautification, anti-smoking and public health initiatives, democratization of the financial system and the transformation of the country into a modern industrial power -- what have the Nazis ever done for us?

Trooper York said...

Hollis P. Wood: [after seeing Captain von Kleinschmidt enter] Jesus Palomino, a Nazi. I knew it, you're all in cahoots. Well let me tell you something, Mr. Heinie Kraut, I fought your kind in the great war, and we kicked the living shit out of you!
(1941, 1971)

Freder Frederson said...

I just love how Cedarford apparently thinks the interstate highway system is a socialist plot (foisted on us by the Nazis no less) to take over the U.S.

His insanity knows no bounds.

Freder Frederson said...

Oh, and Jason, love the reference to Life of Brian.

Luckyoldson said...

Seven Machos,
Actually it was Reagan who emptied many institutions of its severely ill patients (most of which were mentally handicapped), back onto the streets of America.

You'd know that is you ever read anything instead of constantly throwing out right wing nonsense.

Gedaliya said...

Actually it was Reagan who emptied many institutions of its severely ill patients (most of which were mentally handicapped), back onto the streets of America.

Source please.

Luckyoldson said...

Seven Nachos said..."I can't wait until the Democrats win the presidential election. Think of how great life will be. For one thing, the homeless problem will go away. And the Iraq war will enjoy widespread public support."

How could it possibly be any worse???

Luckyoldson said...

Genitalia:

The Mental Health Systems Act hardly had become law when its provisions became moot.

The election of Ronald Reagan to the presidency led to an immediate reversal of policy.

Preoccupied with reducing both taxes and Federal expenditures, the new Administration proposed a 25 percent cut in Federal funding.

More important, it called for a conversion of Federal mental health programs into a single block grant to the States carrying few restrictions and without policy guidelines.

The presidential juggernaut proved irresistible, and in the summer of 1981 the Omnibus Budget Reconciliation Act was signed into law. Among other things, it provided a block grant to States for mental health services and substance abuse.

At the same time, it repealed most of the provisions of the Mental Health Systems Act.

The new legislation did more than reduce Federal funding for mental health; it reversed nearly three decades of Federal involvement and leadership. In the ensuing decade, the focus of policy and funding shifted back to the States and local communities, thus restoring in part the tradition that had prevailed until World War II.

The transfer and decentralization of authority, however, exacerbated existing tensions; Federal support was reduced at precisely the same time that States were confronted with massive social and economic problems that increased their fiscal burdens (Grob, 1994a).

Gedaliya said...

Absolutely nothing in that quote supports your statement that:

Actually it was Reagan who emptied many institutions of its severely ill patients (most of which were mentally handicapped), back onto the streets of America.

In fact, the deinstitutionalization of the mentally ill took place largely in the 1960s, and was a movement that was led by liberal social policy advocates who believed that the institutionalization of the mentally ill was inhumane.

There are countless sources on the Internet that document this process. Your claim that it was Ronald Reagan who was responsible for this movement is not only abjectly fatuous, it is a rank and slanderous lie.

Gedaliya said...

A quote from the report referenced below:

The history of deinstitutionalization falls into several stages as policies and objectives have changed over time. The early focus was on moving individuals out of state public mental hospitals and from 1955 to 1980, the resident population in those facilities fell from 559,000 to 154,000. Only later was there a focus on improving and expanding the range of services and supports for those now in the community, in recognition that medical treatment was insufficient to ensure community tenure. In the 1990’s whole institutions began to close in significant numbers and there was a greater emphasis on rights that secured community integration – such as access to housing and jobs.

In other words, most mentally ill people were de-institutionalized before Ronald Reagan was President. In addition, further de-institutionalization occured in the 1990s, when Clinton was president.

LuckyOldSon should have done a little research before he wrote that smear.

The following is a Kaiser Family Foundation study on the problem:

Learning From History: Deinstitutionalization of People with Mental Illness As Precursor to Long-Term Care Reform

Luckyoldson said...

Genitalia,
If this doesn't at least give you a clue as to what happened...

"The election of Ronald Reagan to the presidency led to an immediate reversal of policy. Preoccupied with reducing both taxes and Federal expenditures, the new Administration proposed a 25 percent cut in Federal funding."
(Try to imagine what cutting 25% out of a Federal Program, of any sort...would do to that program's effectiveness.)

...I suggest you get off your ass and do your own research.

Anyone who actually follows political history knows what the situation was during the Reagan administration, and how his decision to make such a drastic cut created a dramatic release of patients from hospitals all over the country...leaving the states, who didn't have the funding, to fend for themselves.

I realize you worshipt the guy, but that has little bearing on what happened.

Every time someone offers up anything contrary to what you and some others here already believe (or know nothing about for that matter) you immediately ask for all supporting evidence...then never accept the evidence anyway.

Try reading something for a change before mouthing off.

Gedaliya said...

I suggest you read the comment above before you make more of a fool of yourself than you already have.

Luckyoldson said...

Genitalia,
I'll lay odds you're not old enough to have experienced the period Reagan was President...at least as an adult.

I didn't "smear" Reagan, I merely wrote what is common knowledge to those who were there.

Luckyoldson said...

Genitalia,
More "research" for your lazy ass:

The Ugly:
The closing of mental health hospitals in California and across the United States. State mental hospitals were taken away by Governor Reagan in the seventies, and federal mental health programs were later taken away by President Reagan in the eighties.

When Ronald Reagan was governor of California he systematically began closing down mental hospitals, later as president he would cut aid for federally-funded community mental health programs.

It is not a coincidence that the homeless populations in the state of California grew in the seventies and eighties. The people were put out on the street when mental hospitals started to close all over the state.

Seeing an increase in crime, and brutal murders by Herb Mullin, a mental hospital patient, the state legislature passed a law that would stop Reagan from closing even more state-funded mental health hospitals.

But Reagan would not be outdone. In 1980, congress proposed new legislation (PL 96-398) called the community mental health systems act (crafted by Ted Kennedy), but the program was killed by newly-elected President Ronald Reagan. This action ended the federal community mental health centers (see timeline on this link) program and its funding.

And don't forget this:

* The national debt when Ronald Reagan took office was about $1 trillion. That included in it all the debt run up for the Revolutionary war, the Spanish-American war, the Civil war, World War I, World War II, the Korean war, the Vietnam war and all the Social wars of the 1930's and subsequent years. In other words it took the United States from 1776 until 1980 or more than 200 years to accumulate a national debt of $1 trillion.
* Ronald Reagan left us a national debt of about $3.5 trillion or $3,500 billion.
* Given the spending habits established by the legacy of Ronald Reagan the national debt is now a little over $7 trillion!
* The interest cost on the national debt now runs about $318 billion a year! When Ronald Reagan took office they were about $53 billion a year.

Gedaliya said...

My first presidential election vote was in 1972. I was over 21.

Why don't you admit your were wrong about Ronald Reagan? I have cited facts that prove you wrong without any doubt whatsoever. Are you simply so devoid of character that you are incapable of admitting error?

Luckyoldson said...

Genitalia,
Sorry, I guess you're just a 50 something year old moron.

Read more...talk less.

*Oh, and blow me...I could care less what you have to say.

Pogo said...

Well, LOS starts at 'devoid of character', but quickly devolves from there.

Just say 'Nice doggie' like I do.

Jason said...

LOS: "How could it possibly be worse?"

Jehovah! Jehovah! Jehovah!

Jason said...

Why in the world should the Federal government be trying to run mental hospitals outside of the VA?

Shouldn't that be a state/local/private function, anyway?

If the answer is no, then what does the 10th Amendment mean to you?

SGT Ted said...

Are you simply so devoid of character that you are incapable of admitting error?

Why, yes. Yes he is, as a matter of fact. He also like to hit on random posters about oral sex acts he is fond of.

Revenant said...

Are you simply so devoid of character that you are incapable of admitting error?

He was when I quit reading his posts a month or two ago, and presumably he still is. Please do us all a favor and stop talking to him -- all you're doing is driving up the post count.

Daddymade said...

I finally found somewhere to post my comments on waterboarding! I am an ex Navy CTI that had the lovely experience of attending SERE school in Warner Springs around 1979. Since I had a higher top secret clearance than most of the other "attendees", I had "special" treatment!I was the only one out of 36 "prisoners" to both successfully evade and escape the "evasion and capture part" of the training course. During the training there were several tactics used to get information from each of us. Banging you against a sheet metal wall that made a very loud sound for everybody to hear(everyone had hoods over their heads so they couldnt see what's going on)and many other techniques.But let me get to the point of waterboarding since that's what the big topic is today. I had it done to me, it was not pleasant. I was told that there was a doctor standing there the entire time to make sure they did not step over the threshold in causing any physical harm. I won't go into specific details on exactly how they did it but I understand why we had to go through this technique. If I were ever to be captured while I was in the service, I would "hopefully" be prepared to undergo further torture techniques used by the enemy. I don't believe that waterboarding would even come close to what would really be used on us. Our enemy is hateful towards the American military because of what has happened in Abu Graib (sp)and they will inflict great pain way beyond waterboarding to our soldiers who they capture.