March 25, 2009

Barney Frank: Justice Scalia "makes it very clear that he's angry, frankly, about the existence of gay people."

"If you read his opinion [in Lawrence v. Texas], he thinks it's a good idea for two consenting adults who happen to be gay to be locked up because he is so disapproving of gay people."

Well, Barney, I have read that opinion many times, and I know that you are either lying about having read it, lying about what Scalia wrote, or an embarrassingly incompetent reader. Here is the key passage:
Let me be clear that I have nothing against homosexuals, or any other group, promoting their agenda through normal democratic means. Social perceptions of sexual and other morality change over time, and every group has the right to persuade its fellow citizens that its view of such matters is the best. That homosexuals have achieved some success in that enterprise is attested to by the fact that Texas is one of the few remaining States that criminalize private, consensual homosexual acts. But persuading one’s fellow citizens is one thing, and imposing one’s views in absence of democratic majority will is something else. I would no more require a State to criminalize homosexual acts–or, for that matter, display any moral disapprobation of them–than I would forbid it to do so. What Texas has chosen to do is well within the range of traditional democratic action, and its hand should not be stayed through the invention of a brand-new “constitutional right” by a Court that is impatient of democratic change. It is indeed true that “later generations can see that laws once thought necessary and proper in fact serve only to oppress,”... and when that happens, later generations can repeal those laws. But it is the premise of our system that those judgments are to be made by the people, and not imposed by a governing caste that knows best.
That's plain old deference to the democratic process and a resistance to creative interpretation of constitutional text. There is nothing — absolutely nothing — to support the proposition that Scalia thinks it's a good idea to lock up gay people. It's the usual notion that judges shouldn't be basing their decisions on whether they think a statute is a good idea or not. It's the same point made by Justice Thomas (who, Frank says, is not a homophobe):
I write separately to note that the law before the Court today “is … uncommonly silly.” Griswold v. Connecticut, 381 U.S. 479, 527 (1965) (Stewart, J., dissenting). If I were a member of the Texas Legislature, I would vote to repeal it. Punishing someone for expressing his sexual preference through noncommercial consensual conduct with another adult does not appear to be a worthy way to expend valuable law enforcement resources.

Notwithstanding this, I recognize that as a member of this Court I am not empowered to help petitioners and others similarly situated. My duty, rather, is to “decide cases ‘agreeably to the Constitution and laws of the United States.’ ” And, just like Justice Stewart, I “can find [neither in the Bill of Rights nor any other part of the Constitution a] general right of privacy,” ibid., or as the Court terms it today, the “liberty of the person both in its spatial and more transcendent dimensions,” ante, at 1.

307 comments:

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Zachary Sire said...

Of course you don't because you're just as much of a bigot as he is.

Grab a clue, Palladian. There's a big difference between disliking and criticizing religious fanatics because they hate me, and unprovoked attacks on me from people whose magic wizard in the sky commands them to hate.

By the way, fuck you Palladian.

Methadras said...

TitusLuvsLifeEveryLifeEvenaMosquito said...

I am sorry I meant Methadros not Maguaro.

Methadros, you are full of shit and you are a homophobe.


HA!!! This coming from a loaf-pincher.

You have no homo friends and if you did they would not react the way you say they would react.

Embrace your homophobia, nothing wrong with that, just don't bash me. I, as a homo, can't tell some hetero what to think of the mo.

But you Mary, are a phobe and a curious phobe in the Larry Craig kind of way.


Everyone is a critic aren't they? From the looks of it, you still have a little bit of a hanging loaf to let go of. Relax, enjoy the oncoming and satisfying empty feeling that you experience daily.

Methadras said...

Jesus, I'm caught in a cross-fire.

Steven said...

Especially given the vagueness of the Ninth Amendment, it's reasonable to interpret it in terms of original public meaning. And it isn't credible that anyone at the time of the adoption of the amendment (or of the Fourteenth) understood it (or the combination) as restricting the use of the police power to prohibit sodomy.

Personally, I prefer a much stronger presumption of liberty, but the Scalia/Thomas approach is legitimate.

AlphaLiberal said...

John:
If no atheists were against gay marriage you might have a point. But of course lots of athiests are. More importantly, religious people cannot agree about gay marriage. Some religions allow it some don't. Gay marriage or lack thereof is anything but church doctrine.

What some or all atheists think about about gay marriage has ZERO to do with the fact that other people demand that the government enforce THEIR church doctrine on other people.

And, "church doctrine" is not a reference to one church, Catholic or otherwise. It's a doctrine laid down by *A* church.

A more famous recent example is the Mormons spending heavily for the California ballot initiative discriminating against gays.

And it is exactly enforcing church doctrine on other people through the government.

Synova said...

There's a big difference between disliking and criticizing religious fanatics because they hate me, and unprovoked attacks on me from people whose magic wizard in the sky commands them to hate.

So... do you wait for someone to actually express hatred, or do you assume that because they believe in a big wizard in the sky that there is no need to wait for other evidence, and just criticize away over what you *know* they think of you?

Zachary Sire said...

So... do you wait for someone to actually express hatred, or do you assume that because they believe in a big wizard in the sky that there is no need to wait for other evidence, and just criticize away over what you *know* they think of you?

I don't make any assumptions. Do you?

Beth said...

A whole lot of people who feel they have a right to be bed-side in these places are kept out.

Synova, I don't believe you're really that dense. You do know, surely, that the issue is same-sex partners being denied the right to be with their loved one in the ICU, or ER and so on.

Beth said...

HA!!! This coming from a loaf-pincher.

Apparently Methhead never pinches a loaf. That would explain his general demeanor. Eat some fiber, Mary!

AlphaLiberal said...

Whoa! Good one, Beth!

Though, I never thought of it that way - and wish I never had.

Still quite the slam.

Hey said...

I'm ridiculously late, but whatever.

J. Hovsep: The whole "you're a bigot for using this word" schtick is beyond tiresome. You may not want to be called homosexual, but I've heard from a number of lesbians how much they detest being called gay, which "solely refers to men". Never mind those who identify as queer, questioning, trans, bi... This has produced the ridiculousness continual renaming of campus groups - in 96 it was the LGB Alliance, in 98 it was LGBT Alliance, in 01 it was LGBTQ, in 03 it was LGBTQQ, in 05 it was LGBTTSQQ, in 06 it was LGBTTTSQQ. I was a homophobe if I hadn't caught up with the latest iteration.

Then there were the issues between the LGB* group and the Womyn's Centre, since real lesbians and queer womyn couldn't be safe in an environment that included men. And the whole use of the word "queer" - is it something that straight (or heterosexual) people could use, or is it like n***** (or phonetic variants) and only usable by the previously marginalised group? And was gay an insult, derogatory reference, positive description, single sex, or did it mean happy as it did 80 years ago?

This Orwellian manipulation of the language for political purposes is disgusting and immoral. But it is a common technique on the Left to wrap their policy preferences in ever changing terminology to hide their ends in euphemisms. Once a term is broadly understood it becomes bigoted to use it, a useful cudgel as well as a trick to remain perpetually besieged no matter how much progress one makes.

No private acts should be criminalized, whether it's the ingestion of a substance or acts with other consenting adults. Congress and the courts don't recognize this though, nor do the liberals who decry the Lawrence decision. They approve of campaign finance restrictions and gun control, which violate explicit elements in the constitution, while deploring those who haven't gotten on the selective enforcement of privacy rights (they don't see any right to private contracts and keeping the government from interfering with them). If we are gong to have privacy, let us truly have privacy, and not just in ways that the Left approves of.

The other major problem with the Lawrence decision is that it means the eventual legalization of polygamy and bestiality. If the legislatures had been allowed to legalize sodomy, they would have retained the power to prohibit polygamy, but now it is only a matter of time before we have pervasive subjugation of women through polygamy. It's not the result now, but will happen within 2 decades. This is the danger with an outcome based jurisprudence rather than one from first principals - it relies on current standards and fashions and produces unpredictable results in the future, something that the rule of law is specifically supported as preventing.

Peter V. Bella said...

Alpha Liberal has shown his true stupidity. Be is blasting away at a professor of constitutional law because she proved that Barney Frank is as dumb as he/she/it is.

Not only is Alpha puerile, with the maturity of a screaming, screeching toddler, he has proved to one and all he is an idiot.

TitusLuvsLifeEveryLifeEvenaMosquito said...

Unfortunately I am really happy and don't have an empty life. Sorry, I wish I did to reinforce some sterotype for you and so you could feel better about yourself.

I have a wonderful supportive family, great job where I make big bucks, fantastic loft, great friends, good sex, and an ass you can bounce quarters off of.

Those fucking happy homos, they all should be havin "empty lives". Why does a homo not have an empty life? I want and need homos to have empty lives in order for me to feel better about being a homo hater. By the way lovely picture Methadros. And San Diego is kind of gross, sorry.

Palladian said...

"By the way, fuck you Palladian."

Aww, that's sweet! Fuck you too, honey!

Anonymous said...

I agree that Frank is wrong to claim that Scalia said that the anti-sodomy law is a good law. He does not say this in his Lawrence vs. Texas dissent.

Nonetheless, it doesn't seem like an unreasonable inference to deduce that he did, in fact, approve of that law. Unlike Thomas, he declined to say that he thought the law was bad but constitutional. Now, one might argue that Scalia is not inclined to express his opinion on whether he thinks a law is a good law (which I agree is distinct from questions of constitutionality). This is not the case, though. He's indicated in other situations that certain things are "bad but constitutional" and even fantasized about judges having a stamp that declared laws as such. Here's an article about a talk he gave last year:


Of torture, Scalia said: "It’s a bad thing to do. But not everything that is bad is unconstitutional."

He suggested that every federal judge "be issued a stamp pad … and a stamp, and you would whack it on the pad and stomp it on the paper, and it says, ‘Stupid but Constitutional.’ "


So he's indicated that he's inclined to express that kind of view (i.e. the view that Thomas expressed in his own dissent) if he actually believes it.

Palladian said...

"I have a wonderful supportive family, great job where I make big bucks, fantastic loft, great friends, good sex, and an ass you can bounce quarters off of."

And yet... there is something missing, isn't there Titus?

North Dallas Thirty said...

I do so love it when the liberals try to defend what they support and endorse.

You see, that's what liberals do; they dress up children as sex slaves and take them to sex fairs to "show off" and for an "educational experience", and f you object to that, they call you "homophobic".

Same as when a lesbian sexually harasses coworkers, demands sex as the price of advancement, and discriminates against straight people, what does the gay community scream an investigation of and punishment for that is?

"A whole lot of homophobia and sexism".

Gay liberals scream homophobia at anyone who objects to them taking toddlers to public sex fairs. Gay liberals yell homophobe at anyone who dares criticize their sexually harassing people at work. "Homophobe" has the same meaning as "racist" does when shrieked by Jesse Jackson or Al Sharpton -- not that what you're doing is wrong, but that what you're doing is inconvenient to the gay person involved getting exactly what they want no matter how stupid or depraved it is.

AlphaLiberal said...

Peter Bella froths:

Be is blasting away at a professor of constitutional law because she proved that Barney Frank is as dumb as he/she/it is.

I see. Professor of Law holds opinion that you agree with. Therefore, anyone disagreeing, no matter how many of Scalia's homophobic quotes they bring to the conversation, is "dumb."

That's some "thinking" you do there.

I showed a long list of statements from Scalia that amount to being a "homophobe." If you had the ability, you could rationally dispute those.

But you can't. Name-calling is all you have.

Methadras said...

TitusLuvsLifeEveryLifeEvenaMosquito said...

Bull Shit. You don't have homosexual friends and if you did they would not respond the way you say they would. You are a major phobe and like I said nothing wrong with that just don't hurt anyone. Why not celebrate your homophobic "tendencies", why just denial in being a homophobe. If a bunch of gays are calling you a homophobe, sorry darling, you are a homophobe. And you have a very unhealthy obsession with the gay. You do rest areas don't you?


HAHAHA!!! This is so typical of homosexual banter. Question the heterosexual, don't like answer, call him a homophobe, don't like reply to that, then go straight to the closeted homosexual quips. It's like you are a broken record, playing the same song and dance. This is all you have left isn't it? You've become a parody of yourselves, gay smarm and all.


Oh yes, Oh-Great-Loaf-Pincher, you just keep on keeping on. You may fool a lot of people here as the cute and lovable dumping-of-the-kids-at-the-pool kind of person, but your just another vapid, insipid moron with a scat-fetish. I'd rather you just be vapid at least it keeps the moron label in it's proper place, the mirror you stare at when you clench down really hard at whenever you get a big one.

Synova said...

Synova, I don't believe you're really that dense. You do know, surely, that the issue is same-sex partners being denied the right to be with their loved one in the ICU, or ER and so on.

Of course I know that.

But it's dense, too, to act as if the rules were *enacted* to keep same-sex partners from the hospital beds of their loved ones.

Failing to recognize that the rules to limit visitation were made for practical reasons, or even necessary health care reasons, seems opportunistic to me.

Portraying it all as a matter of hate and oppression rather than a problem between parties of good faith is not ever going to lead to solutions to the problem.

AlphaLiberal said...

You see, that's what liberals do; they dress up children as sex slaves and take them to sex fairs ...

WTF? Are there people in this world who actually think this way? I'd say you're just bullshitting but you sound serious.

Look, when you have Republican elected officials posing as family values while looking for sex in restrooms and outhouses, hiring whores to dress them up in diapers, etc, then you should STFU on accusing other people of dressing up kids and taking them to "sex fairs."

For all you know those kids' parents are Republicans!

I don't even know what a "sex fair" is! Fair sex on the other hand....

Methadras said...

Zachary Paul Sire said...

I don't make any assumptions. Do you?


Liar, liar, pants on fire.

AlphaLiberal said...

But it's dense, too, to act as if the rules were *enacted* to keep same-sex partners from the hospital beds of their loved ones.

Guess I missed the post where someone said that.

I'll give you credit for actually making a good point why such rules have some medical rationale.

But the hospital made a decision to strictly implement this law to deny this patient's primary family member from being with her while she died. And THAT had nothing to do with health care and everything to do with discrimination.

John Kindley said...

This whole thread has become quite embarrassing to all concerned. Althouse is known as having one of the most distinguished commentariats in the blogosphere, but this is just sad.

Methadras said...

Beth said...

Apparently Methhead never pinches a loaf. That would explain his general demeanor. Eat some fiber, Mary!


You are right Beth, I don't. To this day I've been blessed with an excellently evacuating colon. I think it's genetic, but I do get an good amount of fiber, nonetheless. However, from the looks of it here maybe a little bit of glycerin up your poop-chute might get you a little more regular and make you a little less crabby. I can see how hanging on to that extra 5 pounds of brown poison can do that to a person like you. Ta!

AlphaLiberal said...

Here is a story about a couple of elected Republican sex fetishists.
http://www.alternet.org/blogs/peek/56689/

Now, employing the "thinking process" used by North Dallas Forty based on this news report would result in the following unfair and stupid conclusions:

- All Republicans want to wear diapers to get sexual kicks.

- All Republicans want to have sex with people of the same sex in outhouses.

- All Republicans pay for sex.

But it would be as wrong and stupid to say that as to make the sort of comments made by North Dallas Forty about gays.

AlphaLiberal said...

Althouse is known as having one of the most distinguished commentariats in the blogosphere, but this is just sad.

Distinguished by what?

I could speculate....

North Dallas Thirty said...

WTF? Are there people in this world who actually think this way? I'd say you're just bullshitting but you sound serious.

Read the link.

Some of the most unlikely attendees of Sunday's kinky leather fetish festival were under four feet tall.

Two-year-olds Zola and Veronica Kruschel waddled through Folsom Street Fair amidst strangers in fishnets and leather crotch pouches, semi and fully nude men.

The twin girls who were also dressed for the event wore identical lace blouses, floral bonnets and black leather collars purchased from a pet store.

Fathers Gary Beuschel and John Kruse watched over them closely. They were proud to show the twins off.......

Father of two, John Kruse said it is an educational experience for children. He said there were conservative parents against having kids at the event.

"Those are the same close-minded people who think we shouldn't have children to begin with," he said.



Next:

Look, when you have Republican elected officials posing as family values while looking for sex in restrooms and outhouses, hiring whores to dress them up in diapers, etc, then you should STFU on accusing other people of dressing up kids and taking them to "sex fairs."

And I've criticized them too. Your point? My guess is that you're desperately trying to avoid criticizing gays because you're so brainwashed that you think any criticism of any gay person whatsoever is "homophobic".

Methadras said...

TitusLuvsLifeEveryLifeEvenaMosquito said...

Unfortunately I am really happy and don't have an empty life. Sorry, I wish I did to reinforce some sterotype for you and so you could feel better about yourself.

I have a wonderful supportive family, great job where I make big bucks, fantastic loft, great friends, good sex, and an ass you can bounce quarters off of.

Those fucking happy homos, they all should be havin "empty lives". Why does a homo not have an empty life? I want and need homos to have empty lives in order for me to feel better about being a homo hater. By the way lovely picture Methadros. And San Diego is kind of gross, sorry.


Talk about projection. But hey man, you don't have to insult my town. You probably didn't get lucky and got all poopy-pants on someone. I can see how that could happen. The homosexuals here can be pretty uptight.

Ignorance is Bliss said...

I'd like to throw a question out to all you beastialiphobes out there ( you know who you are ) who were offended by Scalia comparing homosexuality with beastiality.

From a constitutional standpoint, what makes it okay to outlaw beastiality, but not sodomy?

Dust Bunny Queen said...

I'm just saying refusing to use the mainstream term for something is not a neutral choice

You are being ridiculous. That might be true in a social or casual situation. If someone, in those situations, repeatedly used the term homosexual (the historic term) instead of gay (which is a slang or casual word) it might actually mean something.

However, this is a Justice of the Supreme Court writing in a scholarly manner in an official, public and historic document. To expect that he use the slang d'jour instead of the long standing technical term is just being stupid.

You aren't a stupid person, so why are you being silly?

North Dallas Thirty said...

But it would be as wrong and stupid to say that as to make the sort of comments made by North Dallas Forty about gays.

Actually, what would make it wrong and stupid would be the obvious fact, as I pointed out, that said behavior was criticized and condemned by numerous Republicans.

In contrast, the reaction of liberals and gays when confronted with the fact that they dress children up and take them to sex fairs for "educational experiences", or that they sexually harass coworkers and claim that criticism of their doing so is "homophobia and sexism", is to argue, NOT that it's wrong, but that it's OK because "Republicans do it too".

So make it clear -- if it's wrong for Republicans to be promiscuous, why is it OK for gays and liberals to be? And if it's not wrong for Republicans to be promiscuous, why are you criticizing them for doing it?

Zachary Sire said...

From a constitutional standpoint, what makes it okay to outlaw beastiality, but not sodomy?

I'll play!

Sodomy is the act of anal or oral sex, and it's a private, consensual act between adults. How would you like it if someone tried to lock you up for butt-fucking your wife or girlfriend?

The reason bestiality is illegal in most states is because animals can't give consent, plus it's a public health issue.

By the way, you fucking idiot, learn how to spell.

Zachary Sire said...

If someone, in those situations, repeatedly used the term homosexual (the historic term) instead of gay (which is a slang or casual word)

DBQ, that's highly, highly subjective, if not simply wrong. 'Gay' is not slang or casual if you look at any modern discussion about sexuality. It's the clear self-identifying word, and the word that all public officials (who aren't homophobic) use to describe them.

Hoosier Daddy said...

AlphaLiberal said...
Ri-i-i-ight.

a. Cons want to deny gays the right to marry.


Alpha since you want to ignore the visitation right restriction would also apply to heterosexual couples in a loving committed non-marital relationship let me address your other line of bull.

California which is about as liberal as you can get voted down gay marriage in a referendum. Got that? The same state which went to the most left leaning President in history turned right around and said not just no but hell no to gay marriage.

Now I know the facts there are hard for you to accept in light of your intense hatred of anyone right of Abbie Hoffman but there it is. If the same folks who put Obama in office don't want gay marriage in their state, I'd say you need to get your side back to the drawing table.

AlphaLiberal said...

It's not my place to pass judgment on you for being promiscuous, North Dallas Forty. That's your business and a judgment you get to make on how to live your life.

Anyone found guilty of engaging in sexual harassment should receive the attendant punishment, no matter their sexual orientation.

And, yes, bringing kids to sex fairs (whatever that is) is fucked up. (Saying all gays do so is also, well, just plain dumb.)

And, I guess the relation to this thread is that many people who hate gays and demand they be stripped of rights do so out of very flawed stereotypes that paint all gays as deviants.

And that's not right.

p.s. Making an issue out of the word "homosexual," I simply do not understand.

Hoosier Daddy said...

A more famous recent example is the Mormons spending heavily for the California ballot initiative discriminating against gays.

So a bunch of white bread, ultra conservative bible thumpers were able to convince one of the most liberal state to say no to gay marriage. Is that your final answer?

AlphaLiberal said...

Hoosier Daddy:

Alpha since you want to ignore the visitation right restriction would also apply to heterosexual couples in a loving committed non-marital relationship let me address your other line of bull.

Did you think before typing that? It's got nothing to do with what I said.

Who is denying the right to marry to heterosexual couples?

The sort of cruelty of keeping loved ones apart while one passes away is ONE consequence of the impulse to deny gays of their full rights as citizens.

Then you go off on some other tangent having lost this argument. . . .

Hoosier Daddy said...

Synova, I don't believe you're really that dense. You do know, surely, that the issue is same-sex partners being denied the right to be with their loved one in the ICU, or ER and so on.

Beth, is that truly the case or is the hospital adhering to the strick letter of thier policy and only immediate family? If you look at the link Alpha provided, that in fact was the case which meant that a heterosexual couple in a committed non-marital relationship would be treated in the same manner.

Now if gay marriage was legalized, does that mean that all gay couples will run out and tie the knot? Ok but what about those that don't, will you then be ok with them being denyed visitation under the hospital policy?

AlphaLiberal said...

So a bunch of white bread, ultra conservative bible thumpers were able to convince one of the most liberal state to say no to gay marriage. Is that your final answer?

It wasn't the color of their skin that did it but the color of their money - green. Lots of it. Over $20 million from the organized Mormon campaign -- to force their church doctrine on other people via the government.

And, appealing to peoples' basest instincts -- to hate and discriminate -- is not hard.

(gotta say, I do remember when most conservatives were libertarian and didn't want the government dictating peoples' private lives. Things change!).

Dust Bunny Queen said...

The gay sings show tunes in front of you?

Ha ha ha. That made me laugh. I had a sudden remeberance of a bunch of gay guys doing Ethel Merman imitations at the Judah Street cart stop that I used to take in SF.

That really happened one afternoon. I think they were advertising a revival of Gypsy they were putting on at the Castro Theatre. We all LOVED it. Brightened up our day.

Hoosier Daddy said...

Did you think before typing that? It's got nothing to do with what I said.

I was just pointing out that you refused to admit that the hospital restrictions would have applied to non-married heterosexual couples as well. It was implemented just to discriminate against gays.

Who is denying the right to marry to heterosexual couples?

No one that I am aware of but that's not the point. David Letterman just married the woman he was shacking up with for 20 years. Up to that point, the rules would have applied to him. If you can't prove otherwise, you again lose this one.

Then you go off on some other tangent having lost this argument. . . .

Really? You said cons want to deny gays getting married and I pointed out one of the most liberal states in the nation voted to ban gay marriage. If you can't see the contradiction in your position then I can't help ya.

Dust Bunny Queen said...

whoah Typos. That's what I get for typing at work and trying to multi-task.

Judah Streetcar stop.

Hoosier Daddy said...

It wasn't the color of their skin that did it but the color of their money - green. Lots of it. Over $20 million from the organized Mormon campaign

And, appealing to peoples' basest instincts -- to hate and discriminate -- is not hard.


Wow Alpha. I thought liberals were enlightened people who didn't have base instincts. I would have never thought you liberals could be bought to hate and discriminate. Perhaps I misunderestimated you.

Interesting nonetheless. But then by your reasoning, Obama won purely because he outspent McCain by a few hundred million dollars and appealed to those who hate conservatives and the GOP.

Is that the position you really want to take?

Synova said...

It wasn't the color of their skin that did it but the color of their money - green. Lots of it. Over $20 million from the organized Mormon campaign -- to force their church doctrine on other people via the government.

If money can blind voters that way...

... what does it say about the election of Obama?

AlphaLiberal said...

I was just pointing out that you refused to admit that the hospital restrictions would have applied to non-married heterosexual couples as well.

I don't deny it. It's irrelevant.

Conservatives are trying to deny gays the right to marry. Again, a consequence of that is to deny them the ability to visit their loved ones in the hospitals in certain cases (such as the example I provided).

Really? You said cons want to deny gays getting married and I pointed out one of the most liberal states in the nation voted to ban gay marriage. If you can't see the contradiction in your position then I can't help ya.

Look up "disingenuous" in the dictionary.

Now you're pretending that the drive to ban marriage among same sex couples is not a conservative movement.

Add "intellectual honesty" to the things you look up.

AlphaLiberal said...

If money can blind voters that way...

... what does it say about the election of Obama?


He ran an excellent campaign. He raised the money to get his message across.

Money matters.

Hoosier Daddy said...

I don't deny it. It's irrelevant.

The hell it is.

Conservatives are trying to deny gays the right to marry. Again, a consequence of that is to deny them the ability to visit their loved ones in the hospitals in certain cases (such as the example I provided).

Ok so lets say gay marriage is legal. Is denying a non-married gay couple visitation rights under the hotel policy still discrimination?

Look up "disingenuous" in the dictionary.

Now you're pretending that the drive to ban marriage among same sex couples is not a conservative movement.


I never claimed that it was. What I was pointing out and that you choose to ignore is that a majority liberal state also largely voted against gay marriage. Which means a) liberals are weak minded rubes easily swayed by a few bucks or b) agree with conservatives that gays should not be allowed to marry.

Either way you cut it Alpha, it doesn't support your argument that only conservatives oppose gay marriage.

Add "intellectual honesty" to the things you look up.

Ok but only if you look up 'critical thinking.'

Ignorance is Bliss said...

Zachary Paul Sire said

Sodomy is the act of anal or oral sex, and it's a private, consensual act between adults. How would you like it if someone tried to lock you up for butt-fucking your wife or girlfriend?

Yes, I know, I lived in Alabama pre-Lawrence, which had a similar law, which I ignored. And that shows the real problem with the Texas law: if the police had been called on a hetero couple, they would almost certainly have gotten off with a warning.

The reason bestiality is illegal in most states is because animals can't give consent...

Trust me, I know when they consent!

...plus it's a public health issue.

The same can be said of anal sex.

And face it, those are not the reasons it is illegal. Those are the justifications given. The reason it is illegal is because the majority of people think it is gross and/or immoral.

TitusLuvsLifeEveryLifeEvenaMosquito said...

You mean I am missing a boyfriend Palladian? What do you know that I don't know?

I don't think about it much but maybe. I seem to enjoy my solitude, similar to what Althouse has said.

I don't know, I guess if it happened it would be great but I think I am too insecure for a boyfriend.

But Methadros does sound like a catch and I bet he knows how to suck a hog real long and good.

My name is Titus and HA!!! I am a loaf pincher.

Off to dindin. Methadros if you care to join us we are going to be all be all gay in public. You know going to a restaurant and having dinner and going home-totally fucking in public in your face gay.

Methadros, admit it, you have sucked a cock. A nice wet long cock that shot in your mouth and you swallowed every drop.

Jeremy said...

Synova - "I suppose it didn't come immediately to mind because I've never been so self-centered as to think I've got to hang around an ICU unit or recovery ward, surgery, or emergency room. A whole lot of people who feel they have a right to be bed-side in these places are kept out."

I don't think most people who visit people in the hospital are there to "hang around an ICU unit or recovery ward." And most who are there don't feel they have the "right" to visit, but do so because they care.

I'm having a difficult time understanding what you're trying to say and how it relates to people being turned away.

TMink said...

"A post criticizing Barney Frank's views on a Supreme Court opinion yields comments calling him a "lisping" "bitter queen.""

What, he is not bitter?

Trey

traditionalguy said...

Hey guys... The Gay Marriage life style is ok. If the gays want to try it, the states should legalize it.I know of gay men who have worked a successful monogamous relationship for 60+ years till death did they part. The Fear of the Church folks is that the man+woman and their children marriage will seem too old fashioned and restrictive to their teenage kids. If gay men and gay women seem to be having a better life, without the expenses of Child raising, not to mention the doubling of sexual partners available, gay will become too easy a choice for the young, think their parents.That could mean no grandchildren. Now days monogamous gay partners marrying seems to be a plus, since gay relationships are OK with everyone anyway. my advice to gays is just don't take on the church folks rights to believe what God says about stuff, and the result will be acceptance and peace from true Christians.

Jon Sandor said...

I'd also note that, as Thomas Jefferson recognized, the principle of "majority rules" is far less problematic in the context of very local governments of township size, since actual participation in the decisions of the community is more feasible and since leaving the community if one disagrees with its ordinances is more feasible.

The Constitution enshrines the principle of "majority rules" for all levels of government. It was a concept that all the Founders agreed on, including TJ.

It's true that they also favored keeping a great deal of decision making power away from the Federal government but that's a completely different principle to that of "majority rules", which is the corner stone of the idea of republican government.



And in response to another commenter: I invoked no authority to support my declarations that the "crux of liberty" is such-and-such. To my mind and others', these are self-evident truths.

And to my mind and that of others, your self-evident truths are bunk and run directly counter to those spelled out in the Declaration of Independence.

Jon Sandor said...

Conservatives are trying to deny gays the right to marry.

Gays don't have the right to marry, so nobody can deny them that right. And I mean this in both the legal and ethical senses of the word "right".

Methadras said...

Jon Sandor said...

Conservatives are trying to deny gays the right to marry.

Gays don't have the right to marry, so nobody can deny them that right. And I mean this in both the legal and ethical senses of the word "right".


You are such a bigot and homophobe and I sincerely hope that one day you can suck a really big, fat, juicy penis to bring you out of the closet once and for all.

Methadras said...

TitusLuvsLifeEveryLifeEvenaMosquito said...

But Methadros does sound like a catch and I bet he knows how to suck a hog real long and good.

My name is Titus and HA!!! I am a loaf pincher.

Off to dindin. Methadros if you care to join us we are going to be all be all gay in public. You know going to a restaurant and having dinner and going home-totally fucking in public in your face gay.

Methadros, admit it, you have sucked a cock. A nice wet long cock that shot in your mouth and you swallowed every drop.


You've officially become the Titanic of commenter's on Althouse. You've gone right to:

"admit it, you have sucked a cock. A nice wet long cock that shot in your mouth and you swallowed every drop."

Man, I've never seen this before. I don't know what to do or say with this. How will I ever recover from such witty repartee? How do I top this? Who can I go to for advice? Afterall, with commentary like this, the only place you have to go from here is up.

Titus, this is pathetic, even by your moronic standards. I mean, we all know what you are saying here. You wish I was sucking your little plinker. That's what you really want isn't it? For me to succumb to Titus' little chubby? No flowers, reach-around, or a kiss? What do you take me for? Besides, I don't catch, bitch.

Jon Sandor said...

This is why liberals have a bad impression of Althouse commenters. A post criticizing Barney Frank's views on a Supreme Court opinion yields comments calling him a "lisping" "bitter queen."


True enough. If the comments here lived up to the high standards set at the average liberal blog, that would read "cocksucking motherfucking lisping bitter queen".

Jon Sandor said...

You are such a bigot and homophobe blah blah yakkity yak.

No, it is you who is the brainless and disgusting bigot. See how easy that is? Given the behavior on display from the homosexuals in this comment thread, they need to go back to the closet asap. Don't come back out until you develop the emotional maturity of, say, an eighteen year old.

Jon Sandor said...

How will I ever recover from such witty repartee? How do I top this? Who can I go to for advice? Afterall, with commentary like this, the only place you have to go from here is up.


This would be a little less comical, if in your preceding comment you had not just said " I sincerely hope that one day you can suck a really big, fat, juicy penis to bring you out of the closet once and for all".

But there's no moronic hypocrite like a liberal moronic hypocrite.

Zachary Sire said...

Jon Sandor and Methadras are two self-hating butt-fucking jizz swizzling queers. Go felch each other and get it over with, whores.

Methadras said...

Jon Sandor said...

You are such a bigot and homophobe blah blah yakkity yak.

No, it is you who is the brainless and disgusting bigot. See how easy that is? Given the behavior on display from the homosexuals in this comment thread, they need to go back to the closet asap. Don't come back out until you develop the emotional maturity of, say, an eighteen year old.


Holy shit. It actually worked. Sorry, I didn't put the sarcasm tag on the beginning or end of that, but it was sarcasm truly. I was actually trying to turn the tables on you that happens here when these idiots play this game of theirs. You were a convenient target.

Methadras said...

Zachary Paul Sire said...

Jon Sandor and Methadras are two self-hating butt-fucking jizz swizzling queers. Go felch each other and get it over with, whores.


And ZPS narrowly screams by in hysteria by a nose. Hey Swishy, I can hear the shrieking all the way from over here. You are just so super duper. Turn about is fair gay.

Anonymous said...

What the fuck is wrong with you people?

Palladian said...

"What the fuck is wrong with you people?"

Difficult to say... not enough sex, of either the straight or gay variety I'd guess. Maybe because it's Wednesday.

Jason (the commenter) said...

"Let me be clear that I have nothing against homosexuals"

What a stupid way to begin a sentence. Anyone keyed to such things would assume the writer means the exact opposite.

Scalia should have asked himself why he felt the need to make such a statement and edited what he was saying accordingly.

As for Barney Frank, who cares if what he says doesn't make legal sense. Frank is a politician, not a judge. Is it shocking that he's attacking a judicial ruling politically?

I suppose you could even say Frank's statements amount to a good legal argument. Isn't there a ditty about how if the facts are against you to argue the law, if the law is against you to argue the facts, and if both the law and the facts are against you to call your opponent an asshole?

Peter V. Bella said...

Hey Alpha,
You get into a pissing contest and you are out of your intellectual element. I was not calling you names, I was telling the truth- you are as mature as a toddler.

Now there are one of two reasons why you, a person with a limited intellect on con law matters would get into a pissing contest with a con law professor:

One- you love yellow showers.
Two- you are really a tree.

Sofa King said...

What the fuck is wrong with you people?

This is what speech looks like when it's pushed underground. I think a lot of people have things they want to get off their chests and this turned into a place they thought they could do it.

Jeremy said...

Is Methadras a regular here?

Jeremy said...

"Gays don't have the right to marry, so nobody can deny them that right. And I mean this in both the legal and ethical senses of the word 'right'."

I have no idea what this means.

At one point women did not have the "right" to vote. Does that mean they were not actually being "denied" the right?

Hoosier Daddy said...

Difficult to say... not enough sex, of either the straight or gay variety I'd guess. Maybe because it's Wednesday.

Palladian, Wednesday is hump day. Everyone is having sex. If they aren't they should make it a law dammit ;-)

Anonymous said...

Well, I hate to interject here and I definitely hate to agree with Jeremy, who has not impressed me. However, gay absolutely have a right to marry, and it would be wrong of any state to contravene that right.

States have the right to recognize those marriages. Or not. The underlying reason is that, in a democracy, the state properly reflects the values of the citizens who constitute it.

Joseph said...

http://www.house.gov/frank/scalia.html

What are the chances Althouse will update her post to reflect the actual passages to which Frank was referring?

Anonymous said...

Joseph -- Read the dissents. Read anything except poorly written jingoism from your side. Anything at all.

You can grow into the preening intellectual you so desperately want to be. I just know it. But it's going to take a lot of work. And you are behind the eight ball when it comes to time, son. Don't kid yourself.

Joseph said...

I ain't no intellectual. Just a lawyer who sees dishonest arguments. I agreed with Althouse that the passage she picked did not reflect animus. But that's not the passage to which Frank referred and I think Frank's explanation is very reasonable.

Anonymous said...

So we can infer that you've not read those dissents, then?

Not surprising. Lazy lawyers and wanna be preening intellectuals are about the same thing.

Joseph said...

What do you mean I havent read them? I've quoted them earlier in the comments.

Throbert said...

Justice Scalia:

I would no more require a State to criminalize homosexual acts–or, for that matter, display any moral disapprobation of them–than I would forbid it to do so.

Um, if we were to substitute, say, "reading the Koran" for "homosexual acts" -- i.e., if Scalia had written "I would neither require a state to criminalize reading the Koran, nor forbid a State to criminalize reading the Koran" -- would anyone on this blog say "Gosh, Mr. Scalia, how very reasonable and even-handed of you"?

'Cause what I'd say to Scalia -- had he written that -- would be something along the lines of "What the F&*K is wrong with you that you wouldn't forbid such a totalitarian overreach of power to the State, you idiot? You don't even deserve to be an American, you disgusting fascist, let alone a Supreme Court Justice."

It may be objected that religious observance as well as freedom of the press are explicitly guaranteed by the First Amendment, whereas consensual sexual acts aren't covered by the Constitution.

But note that Scalia didn't write: "As a SCOTUS Justice, I'm not empowered to require that a State do so-and-so, nor empowered to forbid that a State do so-and-so." He wrote, simply, "I would do neither one nor the other," and hence he was evidently speaking not of what he had the Constitutional authority to do, but rather was giving his personal opinion about what he thought reasonable to do.

Anonymous said...

The Constitution almost certainly forbids state governments from imposing a religion. Most state constitutions forbid it as well.

A very, very poor example, R.

Please up your game. Thank you.

Peter V. Bella said...

The underlying reason is that, in a democracy, the state properly reflects the values of the citizens who constitute it.

Community standards? The same reason that SCOTUS used to allow/disallow pornography and “obscene materials”?

Anonymous said...

The very same, Peter. I hasten to add that laws against sodomy are, in the words of Justice Thomas (quoting somebody), "uncommonly silly."

Joseph said...

Seven, note that Justice Thomas certainly disagrees with you that the Constitution forbids state governments from establishing a state religion. And his arguments against incorporation are pretty sound analyticaly, if radical.

Sofa King said...

Community standards? The same reason that SCOTUS used to allow/disallow pornography and “obscene materials”?

Well what the hell is the alternative? Abolish democracy because the people don't choose correctly? Forbid the passage of laws that reflect values? Let people self-govern themselves only on issues that don't matter to anyone?

Look, if you think the court was wrong, then make the argument based on legal reasoning. Scalia's personal feelings, whatever they are, are ultimately unknowable to you and irrelevant. But I don't see that from liberals hardly at all. All I see is a lot of moralistic emotionalism, wishful thinking, guilt-by-association, and personal attacks. I'd love to have a debate about the law and the constitution and the nature of rights and interpretation. But I'm not willing to suffer gratutitous personal attacks to do so.

Anonymous said...

Joseph -- I chose my words carefully. Thomas is wrong because of the subsequent amendments. At any rate, it doesn't matter. I would venture to say that all states have freedom of religion deeply enshrined in their laws.

Throbert said...

Seven Machos wrote:
The Constitution almost certainly forbids state governments from imposing a religion.

Okay, fine -- then let me try a different what-if, involving a consensual activity not covered in the Constitution at all. Suppose Scalia had written:

I would no more require a State to criminalize badminton than I would forbid a State to criminalize badminton.

In that case, who would be willing to let Scalia's breezy declaration pass without further comment, as though criminalizing badminton was every bit as reasonable a proposition as allowing consenting individuals to play badminton without being bothered by the government?

Anonymous said...

You absolutely suck, R. There is no reason that a state cannot forbid badminton, provided it makes the necessary showing. In most states, the perfectly innocuous backyard game Jarts is illegal.

It would more difficult require badminton, just as it would be more difficult to require sodomy.

You probably need to comment somewhere else, R. I don't think you've got what it takes to post here.

DaLawGiver said...

Why can't we all just get along....don't tase me bro!!! Arrghhhh!

Peter V. Bella said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
TMink said...

AlphaLiberal wrote: "What some or all atheists think about about gay marriage has ZERO to do with the fact that other people demand that the government enforce THEIR church doctrine on other people."

So non-religious people have a right to their opinion, but religious people do not.

I appreciate your showing your bigotry so clearly.

Trey

dick said...

What gets me is all the brouhaha about the Mormons and their money in the California elections. Where do you think the money to fight the amendment came from and how much of it. From what I read the anti-Prop 8 spent as much as the pro-Prop 8 and I would make bets that the money came from all over the country. How is the Mormon money any different from that?

AlphaLiberal said...

Barney Frank elaborates on his comments.

But the point is that Justice Scalia goes far beyond simply denying that there is a constitutional right here and makes clear his support for the discriminatory policies based on his condemnation of homosexuality. This is best illustrated by the contrast between his writing in the criminal sodomy case and that of Justice Thomas, who in disagreeing with his colleague's view that the Constitution prohibits criminal prosecution for private consensual sex between adults, notes that he believes that the law in question is "remarkably silly" and notes that he would have voted against it if he was in a legislature. So while both Justice Thomas and Justice Scalia are in the minority upholding the right of criminal prosecution, Justice Thomas makes clear his disapproval of this as a matter of policy while Justice Scalia enthusiastically embraces it.

AlphaLiberal said...

Trey misrepresents my words:

So non-religious people have a right to their opinion, but religious people do not.

Your words, not mine.

I've never heard an atheist say "My religion says X, so all people should follow X."

But I have heard hundreds of arguments that someone's personal religion says "no homosexuality" so, therefore, our government should pass laws against gays.

Maybe in a theocratic state that's an acceptable argument. Not here where we have freedom of religion.

Keep your religion to yourself and don't go ramming it down other people's throats.

Not that Jesus was anti-homosexual. (No-one can name the sermon where Jesus preached against homosexuality).

TMink said...

AlphaLiberal, it was your words that hung you pal. One of your points was that it is fine for athiests to vote their beliefs but not OK for Christians.

Honestly, it is not your fault. You are owned by the enemy. A central aspect of Christianity, that you (like me) are a wretched sinner and not fit to be in charge of your own life, is offensive to you and you rebel against it in all forms.

So your spirit rebels against anything that supports that position, because it is so threatening. Well, it IS threatening, to me too! But I have made peace with it and accepted it.

You reject it and rebel against it. The very thought makes you uneasy and is insulting to your ego and your belief that people can improve the basic nature of humanity.

It leads to confusion to the point that your own words seem foreign and like an attack.

But that is what you wrote. And your opinion on my ability to vote my beliefs thankfully has no effect. 8)

For the record, I would vote for Gay civil unions if given the chance. I voted against Gay marriage when I had the chance. This will confuse you because of your bigotry against people like me, but others will comprehend this easily.

It is tough being on the wrong side of the Supreme Being of the Universe. I understand.

Trey

Salamandyr said...

You know, it would actually be relatively easy to get Scalia to side with gays.

Scalia's position is that the Constitution allows state government to legislate moral issues, which it demonstrably does. So all you have to do is amend the Constitution. That sounds difficult, but it's definitely a better solution than the swaying the vicissitudinous impulses of nine geriatrics. As it stands right now, the vaunted right to privacy is one voice away from oblivion. Actually doing the legwork to get an amendment passed would actually ensure that your descendants will still have the rights you're fighting for. Plus, you also get the textualists on your side.

AlphaLiberal said...

One of your points was that it is fine for athiests to vote their beliefs but not OK for Christians.

The only explanation I can find for this wholly false assertion is abuse of alcohol or drugs before typing.

That, or chronic dishonesty. Though the 2 are not exclusive.

So maybe Trey is just a drunken liar.

AlphaLiberal said...

Picking up on Joseph Hovsep's challenge to Ann Althouse:

http://www.house.gov/frank/scalia.html

What are the chances Althouse will update her post to reflect the actual passages to which Frank was referring?


I would say "nil." Ann prizes her web traffic far above being fair or accurate. And, for Ann, that means catering to the narrow-minded bigotry of the right wing.

Ann Althouse said...

"What are the chances Althouse will update her post to reflect the actual passages to which Frank was referring?"

Quote the part where Scalia expresses the opinion that he'd like to see gay people imprisoned. It is not there. Obviously.

Seerak said...

What Texas has chosen to do is well within the range of traditional democratic action, and its hand should not be stayed through the invention of a brand-new “constitutional right” by a Court that is impatient of democratic change.

The funny thing is, that Frank et al. are all in favor of "traditional democratic action when the subject is gun control -- which is far from being a "brand new right".

Hey Leftists: live by the democratic sword, die by the democratic sword. That's what happened to California gays last November.

That's why the Left organized a subsequent "Four Weeks Hate" campaign (most visible in West Hollywood, of course) against the highly visible Mormons: to arrest the incipient awareness among the LGBT community -- triggered by the fundamentally democratic nature of Proposition 8's success -- that perhaps there are things (called "rights") that should not be subject to "traditional democratic action".

AlphaLiberal said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
AlphaLiberal said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
AlphaLiberal said...

Ann:

Quote the part where Scalia expresses the opinion that he'd like to see gay people imprisoned. It is not there. Obviously.

You parse too much. The fact is that the theocratic laws Scalia wants to uphold would result in people being locked up!

That's what happens with laws! People who violate them can become imprisoned.

Here's another Scalia quote from the same dissent that is highly material and which you pretend does not exist:

"Many Americans do not want persons who openly engage in homosexual conduct as partners in their business, as scoutmasters for their children, as teachers in their children’s schools, or as boarders in their home."

Now if you can't see that's "homophobic," you will see no homophobia anywhere. It's quite literally, a fear of gays. An unfounded, irrational, paranoid fear of gays.

Of course, you won't write a new post saying "OK, I was wrong and Frank made a good point about Scalia."

Instead, it's buried here as comment 301.

Unknown said...

The whole bunch are a bunch or worthless, insane, schizo, lying,racketeering Godless trash. They are all fake fighting to make you think they oppose each other when they are all Gay bastrds lol. I refer to them as the evil Dem(on)/GOP Gay Ole Parties.

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Alexhead said...

The justices' acknowledgment of personal disagreement with a law while affirming their duty to interpret the Constitution is a nuanced aspect. It reflects the complexity of their positions and the delicate line they must walk between personal beliefs and constitutional interpretation in their decisions.

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