June 19, 2009

"1 in 4 South African men... said they had raped someone, and nearly half of them admitted more than one attack."

"The study, by the country's Medical Research Council... said practices such as gang rape were common because they were considered a form of male bonding.... The study found that one in 10 men said they had been raped by other men. Some 3% of the men interviewed said they had coerced a man or a boy into sex."

62 comments:

Aaron said...

I have long said there was no such thing as an accurate sex survey. maybe the truth is the same with rape. I just bluntly have a hard time believing it could be that bad, without all the women saying "f--- this, i am out of here."

But i could be wrong. Certainly if this bears out, there needs to be something serious done over there.

Fred4Pres said...

I have no idea if that percentage is correct, but the fact is rape is out of control in South Africa, mostly in black neighborhoods. That has to be having a devestating effect on that society.

MadisonMan said...

They didn't survey women. I wonder why.

Roger J. said...

I looked at the BBC link, but didnt see a link to the study--I would REALLY like to see the study and its methodology before taking off on this one.

nansealinks said...

if you are a woman you learn to take your rape as a woman. Until you build up strong legs, arms, and most definitely a strong core.

A marine core:
twenty minutes of dolphin kick on your back everyday. The frat boys at the pool will make smiles at you as a cougar or milf. But damn, you, know you are ready when you use your hip to shut the car door and you swat a fly at the same time.

aberman said...

Working backwards, if 10 percent of the men say they were raped, and 3 percent admitted to it, that's a ratio of 3.333 to 1. Obviously, statistics are much more complicated than what I'm doing, but a straight comparison would mean that if 24 percent of the men admitted to rape, then 24 * 3.3333 or 80(!) percent of the women in the areas surveyed are victims of rape.

knox said...

I wouldn't find this too terribly hard to believe, from what you hear about S. Africa.

LarsPorsena said...

Quibble with the stats but they connote an accelerating anarchy and societal disintegration.

South Africa is starting to resemble the Congo;just give it another decade. But we have the memory of Mandela to keep us warm.

nansealinks said...

oh wow, i just realized what a funny joke i made. the dumbcluck naïve housewife who never worked a day in her life and couldn't get a job if she tried.

a car door and a fly, man those both can be a zipper on a man' pants, couldn't they?

Ralph L said...

What percentage of young women (and men) live with their fathers? Hard to believe there's no revenge, or is that where the 10% males victims comes from?

We could send them kevlar burquas.

Randy said...

They are in good company, apparently. Certainly, the newly-elected President of South Africa is in no position to deliver a moral lecture to the populace on the subject, were he so inclined, which is doubtful.

TMink said...

The generally accepted stats in America is that one in three girls and one in 5 boys are sexually abused. This probably accepts groping and fondeling as sexual abuse, and while that can mess up kids a bunch, it is not rape. I have always believed that boys are perpetrated as much as girls but either lie about it or define it differently.

So I wonder how much different the stats are between here and there, I especially wonder if we could get accurate rates.

But it sure does sound horrid.

Trey

Pogo said...

"I don't think it's cultural per se; I think it has to do with how a lot of us men worldwide were raised. The issues of dominance against women, issues of inequality, are pervasive and you find them throughout the world."


Oh, culture surely has something to do with it.

Rapes per 1,000 people, by country:

#1 South Africa: 1.19538
#2 Seychelles: 0.788294
#3 Australia: 0.777999
#4 Montserrat: 0.749384
#5 Canada: 0.733089
#6 Jamaica: 0.476608
#7 Zimbabwe: 0.457775
#8 Dominica: 0.34768
#9 United States: 0.301318
#10 Iceland: 0.246009
#13 United Kingdom: 0.142172
#14 Spain: 0.140403 per 1,000 people
#15 France: 0.139442 per 1,000 people
#16 Korea, South: 0.12621

But do you believe
#65 Saudi Arabia: 0.00329321 per 1,000 people?

William said...

The new President, Zuma, was tried and acquitted for rape. He does not seem the best possible person to lead the crusade against this crime. The fact that he was elected means that more than one out of four South Africans are supportive of rapists....It cannot credibly be said that this crime is a sequlae of colonialism or apartheid. Therefore, you will not read more than an occasional article about this horror.....Throughout the world people act out their vileness in accordance with local customs and traditions. It is the custom and tradition of our media to believe that the locus of all pain is white men pursuing money.

class-factotum said...


But do you believe
#65 Saudi Arabia: 0.00329321 per 1,000 people?


I am assuming those are reported rapes. Considering that it is highly likely that the raped woman would be considered the one at fault and punished for having non-marital sex, I would guess that most Saudi women do not report rape.

Ironclad said...

And for the statistics on Saudi Arabia it most certainly does not include rape of foreign domestic help (primarily South Asian women employed as family maids) by their employers and especially their sons.

Patrick said...

I think this is right. I have met many South Africans, and this is one of the reasons why (given that I have met them in Australia).

The country's black-favouritism plus extreme violence have led many of the most educated and talented to flee - even the bravest and strongest jarpie knows that one day something will happen to his girl/s and he will not be there, or he will be killed first.

So they leave, and a part of South Africa's future leaves with them. Nkosi sikelel' iafrica, when the Children of South Africa falter and must flee, yihla moya, indeed.

PS: the stats cited are very problematic, for the reason class-factotum gives. It is terrifying to consider that the figures are understated in most of the non-western countries already in the top ten, definitely including South Africa.

traditionalguy said...

Is this like downloading and file sharing someone else's property? The penalties are much lower for Black on Black sex crimes. I hope we don't surrender to that attitude toward women here in the USA just to be more liberal and accepting of other cultures. The Sex traders are a growing problem and with few jobs left in America, they will trap many young women who are in survival mode.

Gahrie said...

I don't know if the report mentions this, but you also have to factor in the common belief in Africa that sex with a virgin is a cure for HIV/AIDS.

Roger J. said...

Re the Saudi stats. Given my admittedly brief year in the Kingdom, my suspicion is that those are homosexual rapes involving young boys. My Arabic interpreters told me that there was a bit of a penchant for that in the kingdom--although they suggested it was primarily Yeminis that were responsible. At least the Yeminis were the ones that were beheaded for the crime.

One reason why it might be homosexual rape? Saudi women are either sequestered or have a male escort. I doubt that the rape of a female guest worker would even go reported.

holdfast said...

Wait - I thought that raping a virgin can cure AIDS?

In all seriousness, I know a couple of ex-South African cops. Seriously hard guys - since all white males had to do national service, it was either the military or the police, and the short-timers (draftees) usually got to work the townships. This is not your C.A.R.E. policing, but for all their brutality, they did keep a semblance of order in the townships - nowadays it is pure anarchy - add in the rampant corruption, family disruption caused by AIDS and the prevalence of Nigerian and other foreign gangs, and it Mad Max land. Add in the legacy of a first world infrastructure, and the misery just moves faster.

Aaron said...

Pogo

Well, that saudi number is dubious because after all, if a woman admits to being raped, she will often be stoned for doing something wrong, too.

Its like a long time ago i saw a survey talking about the cultures of Texas cities and Dallas apparently scored much more like an eastern city than all the other cities around it. And they talked about differences in whether they are liberal, conservative, moderate, etc., or whether they watch the simpsons. One thing that stood out was whether they watched Jerry Springer (this was back when they had a fight on that show just about every day, which i don't think is the case anymore, if its even on).

And i remember saying, "the problem is that this a survey. which means that they are really measuring how many people in dallas would admit to watching Springer even anonymously. But i bet the neilson ratings tell a different story."

i will repeat myself. there is no such thing as an accurate sex survey. and i doubt there is any such thing as an accurate rape survey, either. The best it tells you is what their attitudes about these things are.

And yeah, leaving out women is a big blind spot in the study.

bagoh20 said...

"But do you believe
#65 Saudi Arabia: 0.00329321 per 1,000 people?"


NO.

Pogo said...

" there is no such thing as an accurate sex survey."

Ah, the problem with all social 'science', no?

The best overall measure of how grim and arduous it is to exist in any given nation is life expectancy.

Worldwide, men are expected to live until 65 and women until almost 70. In Africa, men live until 52 and women until 54. In South Africa, the life expectancy for men is 49 and for women 50, about where the developed world was in 1900.


It must be hell for men and women alike in South Africa.

Big Mike said...

Before I get too excited about any study I want to know more about methodology, raw numbers, etc. Most people who try to use statistics don't have the smallest scintilla of an idea about what they're doing.

But if the study is anything even close to true, then doesn't this argue for a return to apartheid? Just thought I'd ask.

Randy said...

doesn't this argue for a return to apartheid?

No.

Just thought I'd ask.

Just thought I'd answer.

nansealinks said...

guess your life extends a bit when you build those strong arms and legs and core?

i think this may answer the question in a previous post:

what is wrong with kegger abs?

Course, kegger abs or car door cooch( which apparently means a loose cooch and not a guy's fly)

flab is flab.

Scott M said...

...so tell me again how it can be that no one culture can be superior to another culture?

Randy said...

...so tell me again how it can be that no one culture can be superior to another culture?

In an artificially-created/alternate reality wherein the person positing that position is safe and secure within a culture that permits and encourages pandering and pontification.

Methadras said...

Hate to break it to you, but if you try to put modernity into a populace that is pre-historic, what do think they will do? Well, act prehistorically. What do you expect from a continent that is steeped in some of the most primitive tribalism, black magic, ignorance, and uneducation? South Africans got what they wanted. Got rid of the white man and began their campaigns to bring Africa back to it's subhuman roots. Rapists are subhuman regardless of melanin content.

Shanna said...

I just bluntly have a hard time believing it could be that bad, without all the women saying "f--- this, i am out of here."

Not everyone has somewhere to go. This kind of thing has been a problem for a while in parts of Africa.

24 percent of the men admitted to rape, then 24 * 3.3333 or 80(!) percent of the women in the areas surveyed are victims of rape.

No, you’d really need to hear from the women on this. Especially if we’re talking about gang rape (which is a problem I think over there), you could easily have a bunch of men raping the same woman.

save_the_rustbelt said...

At one time there was a myth circulating through some African countries that raping a child would cure AIDS.

Ugly, very ugly.

NightBastard said...

Aaron, it's well known in Texas that Fort Worth is where the West begins and Dallas is where the East peters out.

Randy said...

FWIW, may I offer the suggestion that barring someone providing proof otherwise, there is no reason to believe this situation is substantially different than that during the apartheid era, or before it?

Freeman Hunt said...

Time for South Africa to get a hanging judge. Easy call. Come down hard, and I mean very hard, on this rape problem, and it won't exist anymore.

Kirby Olson said...

Just another reason to embrace multiculturalism!

Kirby Olson said...

Change is always a good thing!

Big Mike said...

@Randy, I was just being humorous. (Or trying, anyway.)

Based on the success of my comment I plan to apply for a position as a joke writer for David Letterman (I can hardly be any worse than the crew he's got.)

LarsPorsena said...

Randy:
Here's a partial answer to some of your reservations.
http://censorbugbear-reports.blogspot.com/2009/01/south-african-crime-victims-terrified.html

Randy said...

Thanks for the link Lars. I'm aware that it is a far more violent and dangerous place today. All the same, I think there is much to be said for this observation:

"The absolute imperative is we have to change the underlying social attitudes that in a way have created a norm that coercing women into sex is on some level acceptable.... South African men over the centuries have been socialised into forms of masculinity that are predicated on the idea of being strong and tough and the use of force to assert dominance and control over women, as well as other men."

Jeff with one 'f' said...

Over at Feministing the comments have devolved to a pissing match on why the West is (culturally) no better than the Third World, even places where things like this rape culture take place.

Self-hatred is the raison d'être for the left.

Randy said...

So was I, Big Mike. So was I ;-)

Beth said...

I have always believed that boys are perpetrated as much as girls but either lie about it or define it differently.

Trey, I suspect you're right. The recent case in Florida, where several boys were convicted of raping another in their locker room, is an anecdotal example. The rapists admitted it, seemingly unfazed by the whole thing and wondered what the big deal was. I also wonder if the boys who find themselves participating in some sort of group attack are motivated, among other things, by the idea that they're either in the pack, or they're among the likely victims.

That made an impression on me, and I now assume that male students on my campus need the same kind of workshops and information that we provide for women on sexual assault and violence. If you have any good references - literature, programs - feel free to email me.

Pogo said...

"I now assume that male students on my campus need the same kind of workshops and information that we provide for women on sexual assault and violence."

Excellent thought, as long as you avoid calling them 'workshops'. =)

Have men teach it.

Don't advise or expect any guys to talk about it, or even want to. At least not in any group setting; the shame is too strong.

Use a Code of Honor approach.
I was taught by my dad, for example, to never ever hit a girl, and I never have. He considered it unmanly (he was a boxer, BTW).

I hope you consider such an endeavor. Men are, IMO, currently devolving.

Beth said...

Pogo, thanks. Your points are well-taken. I think the first step is to make sure that it's understood that counseling on and off campus is available for male survivors of sexual assault and that it's completely private. Just knowing that we know they exist sometimes is enough.

I helped a student with not exactly that issue, but something he needed help with and had never spoken with anyone about. He lurked around outside the Women's Center for a week or so, then finally found me in the hallway and asked if he could come in. We have men working there, and participating in programs, but I guess he hadn't seen that. Once he knew he was safe, I was able to connect him with a group of other guys dealing with the same issue. So, your points on "workshop" and privacy are spot on. And yes, we have male counselors as well as female, holding discussions on sex and all those things. There's even a group of college guys who hold peer discussions on campuses around town, on "how to be a man" along the lines you mentioned in your post - they got together in high school when they noticed instances of violence and bullying in dating couples, and continued when they got to our campus.

Beth said...

I just want to add - I take no credit for what the students are doing. I just help them find ways to organize and give them a meeting space and so on. Maybe men are devolving, but there's a lot of them fighting that tide.

Pogo said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Beth said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Cedarford said...

I remember that black african soldiers were also implicated in tens of thousands of infant rapes of those 4 and under. That was in the Congo, Angola, Liberia, Sierra Leone, Ivory Coast.

Rape 'em, rip 'em open, rupture and tear internal organs, then discard when done - leave them to bleed to death.

The petulant childish Womyn's studies crowd, activist feminists in America tend to ignore that because it tends to bring into question "all cultures are equal in merit, all peoples are just as good, smart, and noble as the next." Far better to focus their fury on lack of females in American tanks in Iraq, glass ceiling fantasies, and the general unsuitability of men to be around or raise children..

knox said...

Jesus.

Scott M said...

The petulant childish Womyn's studies crowd, activist feminists in America tend to ignore that because it tends to bring into question "all cultures are equal in merit, all peoples are just as good, smart, and noble as the next."

Exactly. This is one of my main drumbeats. First of all, I don't understand it from a purely evolutionary point of view (one I don't strictly hold to).

If humans are simply the end result of mathematical probability and evolutionary mutation, then how in the word could you ever logically believe that we're all equal in ability, cognitive, athletic, work ethic, or otherwise? Given the way the natural world works, the only way you get that is outside interaction. Otherwise, it's survival of the fittest...which doesn't fit into feminism very well at all.

Sofa King said...

What the fuck is wrong with Africa?

Pogo said...

The absence of Greece and Jerusalem.

Cedarford said...

Pogo said...
The absence of Greece and Jerusalem.

No, the absence of capacity to create another Greece or Jerusalem (or Chin Dynasty, or Ur, or a Mesoamerican civilization)

Maxine Weiss said...

There are certain parts of Europe where what in the USA call rape is, for them, "forced seduction".

I think it does a disservice to lump rape in with certain types of horseplay, rough flirting, and sexual/corporal games.

Aren't we all supposed to be a little more tolerant of others' bizarre proclivities and peccadiloes ?

Love,
Maxine

paul a'barge said...

Apparently a lot of South African women are lying back and enjoying it.

Perhaps they've been taking lessons from Maxine?

rhhardin said...

Human rights appearing as a priori is a Western idea, not a universal idea.

Too bad if you've been underminding the West and now don't like the consequences.

PatCA said...

Aaron,
Many law abiding people are leaving S. Africa. Even a liberal US newspaper admits it. If you want to read a disturbing novel about this, read Disgrace by Coetzee. I hated the book, but it's about this subject.

Violence fuels emigration

A question that should be addressed some day is, what is the causal connection between crime and civil rights. Is there one?

Freeman Hunt said...

On people who rape babies: Shouldn't that merit the death penalty? Isn't that very obviously a bridge so far that once it has been crossed, one can never be a member of a civilized people again?

Freeman Hunt said...

Human rights appearing as a priori is a Western idea, not a universal idea.

Too bad if you've been underminding the West and now don't like the consequences
.

Yes.

Why is it that the cool thing to do right now is to undermine anything that is successful? What are the best places to live in the world? Are all of these places part of the West culture or heavily influenced by Western culture? Maybe we shouldn't be so quick to throw it away then.

Maxine Weiss said...

Americans always have a hard time accepting that, cross-culturally, women like to be dominated.

Although, even in America, I'm not sure why rape as a fetish should be illegal, ---given all the other perversions and proclivaties normal, everyday, men who mow their lawns and pay their taxes---routinely engage in.

Actually, many an upstanding gentleman likes being dominated by a "lady friend" as well, I'm sure.

My manicurist told me two, and three, inch arcrylics are back in fashion.....and we all know the reason why !

Love,
Maxine

Zeb Quinn said...

Me, I'd be curious to know what the rape and gang rape rate and overall rape situation was in the years before 1994, when everything changed in S Africa, politically speaking, and oh so much supposedly for the better.