July 19, 2009

"I was given the 'honor' to temporarily marry young girls before they were sentenced to death."

"In the Islamic Republic it is illegal to execute a young woman, regardless of her crime, if she is a virgin, he explained. Therefore a 'wedding' ceremony is conducted the night before the execution: The young girl is forced to have sexual intercourse with a prison guard - essentially raped by her 'husband.' 'I regret that, even though the marriages were legal,' he said. Why the regret, if the marriages were 'legal?' 'Because,' he went on, 'I could tell that the girls were more afraid of their "wedding" night than of the execution that awaited them in the morning. And they would always fight back, so we would have to put sleeping pills in their food. By morning the girls would have an empty expression; it seemed like they were ready or wanted to die. 'I remember hearing them cry and scream after [the rape] was over' he said. "I will never forget how this one girl clawed at her own face and neck with her finger nails afterwards. She had deep scratches all over her.'"

103 comments:

The Drill SGT said...

Sharia, coming to a continent near you.

Is multiculturalism good thng?

Are all customs equal?

Big Mike said...

The Romans in the 1st century did something similar; according to Dio's history, when Tiberius had Sejanus and his family put to death the youth of the daughter Junilla caused a problem since it was against precedent for a virgin to be executed. So Junilla was raped, supposedly with the rope that was to be used to execute her already tied around her neck.

So, bottom line, the Islamic Republic is only 20 centuries behind the West.

Joe said...

And why the hell were young teenager virgin girls being executed? What a vile religion.

(Cue the fuckers who will now explain this bullshit in terms we lesser intellects will understand and appreciate.)

Glen said...

We need to open a dialogue with these people.

Baron Zemo said...

They are bacilli infecting our poor beleaguered body politic. They need to be eradicated to the last jot and tittles.

To coin a phrase: “By any means necessary.”

OldGrouchy Doug Wright said...

Quite the open and candid debate going on there in Iran, Mr. President Obama.

Do you, Mr. President, or your family, have empathy for those young Iranian girls?

Jason (the commenter) said...

Joe : And why the hell were young teenager virgin girls being executed? What a vile religion.

If you're a Christian or a Jew you have no business talking.

rhhardin said...

Thuggery wins so long as the other side is faint-hearted.

Maguro said...

If you're a Christian or a Jew you have no business talking.

You're so right. Surely it's just a fantastic coincidence that these kinds of stories originate primarily in Islamic settings these days.

No patterns to see here, no, nothing at all.

Fred4Pres said...

The Shah fell in large part because he lost legitimacy with the majority of Iranians (his secret police toward the end of his regime were enaged in extraordinary violence against the people). The Ayatollahs when they took over litterally killed millions of young Iranians in their war with Iraq, but they got away with that because there was a defined hated enemy in the form of Saddam Hussein. But now the theocrats in Iran are managing to have history go full circle. the "enemy" are their own people. The theocrats are the ones delegitimizing not only themsleves, but their radical hypocritical disgusting faith. And I understand such behavior is not the majority view of Islam, but there should be 100 times the outrage over this as there was over Catholic clergy abuse. Why isn't there?

This is pure evil. Where are the fatwahs against such crimes?

Big Mike said...

If you're a Christian or a Jew you have no business talking.

Well I'm an atheist and I say it's wrong. Repulsively wrong.

NKVD said...

Come on, liberals love islam. Muslims exercise the kind of power that makes democrats and progressives salivate. Plus, they kill Jews, so it might be the best possible religion ever, from the stand point of a slacker/hipster/metrosexual idiot.

the quietist said...

Remember, we can't criticize other cultures because ours is just as bad. Like, smallpox blankets and slavery and stuff hundreds of years ago.

False equivalencies and sophistry: enabling moral cowardice since 1968! It's much easier (and more lucrative) to crusade against fascist Amerikkka than against the places where human rights violations aren't just failures to live up to principles, but actual official policy. Dissidents in Cuba get thrown in prison; dissidents in North Korea go to hard labor camps; dissidents in Iran get executed in the streets by plainclothes thugs. "Dissidents" in the US get awards and hefty speaking fees in the academic circuit (Michael Moore makes around $25,000 per talk).

(Remember, however, this isn't a religious thing, it's Iran. The Koran does not mandate state-sponsored virgin-rape/executions. Let's not confuse who the barbarians are.)

Laura(southernxyl) said...

Jason (the commenter) said...

Joe : And why the hell were young teenager virgin girls being executed? What a vile religion.

If you're a Christian or a Jew you have no business talking.


OK, I'll bite. What are you talking about?

Jason (the commenter) said...

Maguro : You're so right. Surely it's just a fantastic coincidence that these kinds of stories originate primarily in Islamic settings these days.

No patterns to see here, no, nothing at all.

It's no coincidence. Since Islam is an Abrahamic religion it has the atrocities described in the Jewish and Christian holy books as precedence.

Jason (the commenter) said...

Big Mike : Well I'm an atheist and I say it's wrong. Repulsively wrong.

I agree with you, but you'll notice Joe called all of Islam vile. Maybe he misspoke, but Judaism and Christianity have stories in their religious texts comparable with this news story.

Maguro said...

It's no coincidence. Since Islam is an Abrahamic religion it has the atrocities described in the Jewish and Christian holy books as precedence.

I must have missed the part of the Bible where they raped young girls before executing them. Perhaps it's in the Talmud, eh? Those wily Jews...surely Cedarford can tell us all about it.

Doesn't explain why horrific crimes against women these days tend to be concentrated in Muslim countries, but better not to think about that. It might spoil our multicultural delusions...just take the blue pill and be happy.

the quietist said...

Jason, pointing to Old Testament stuff does not an equivalency make.

In Iran today girls are raped so they can be legally executed!

...yeah, well, Christians and Jews can't talk, because 5,000 years ago the ancient Hebrews kept women as slaves.


Besides, religion is a red herring. There are atrocities and extreme examples of unfreedom in Cuba and North Korea, where all religions are discouraged. The Nazis were atheists who advocated a return to pre-Christian pagan moral codes (i.e. "honor" over "compassion"). The point is unfreedom and tyranny, which all utopianisms (whether religious, like Iran, or atheistic, like communism) inevitably lead to.

Hunter McDaniel said...

Am I the only one who wonders whether this story is, you know, actually true? Or maybe Scott Beauchamp has a cousin in Iran?

L. E. Lee said...

It was not that relatively long ago women were being burned at the stake on this continent for being witches.
The difference is not between religions, instead the difference is between those societies that have a separation between religion and state and those that don't. It appears that better educated and more urban Iranians are starting to wake up to this fact and fighting in the streets for change.

Synova said...

"It was not that relatively long ago women were being burned at the stake on this continent for being witches."

Really?

Where?

Of *Salem* I found this... "Nineteen people were hanged, one person was pressed to death, and as many as thirteen people may have died in prison."

Maguro said...

The Bible...the Salem Witch Trials...anything to avoid talking about the present.

Anyone want to remind us of the Spanish Inquisition and the Crusades?

Because whatever Godfrey of Bouillion did back in 1097 totally excuses what goes on in Iran and Saudi Arabia today.

To think otherwise is racist.

Hey said...

This just shows how enlightened the Left and the anti-war are. How much they truly love humanity and appreciate the meaning in the rape of young girls so that they can be executed in a religiously appropriate manner. So much for us to learn from the wisdom of Shariah.

Nuke em till they glow and shoot them in the dark. Should have done it with Moscow, we should do it now. The entire umma, including Paris.

Kirby Olson said...

I was trying to imagine what Jason was discussing in terms of Biblical precedents much less precedents of our own era that would equal the atrocity described.

Medea slaughters her own children to get back at Jason, but Medea was a pagan.

Or you could think about Agamemnon killing his daughter in exchange for a favorable wind, but then Agamemnon was a pagan.

Nero slaughtered Christians in the Circus Max, but then Nero was a pagan.

Christ's disciples were all crucified (except John), but this was done by pagans.

Abraham NEARLY killed Isaac, but didn't.

Maybe he was thinking about that?

Jason's short on details. Maybe he's imagining some horrific history that someone hinted at in his women's studies class at such and such State U. But I can't find any specifics that would match this bizarre circumvention of the rule against putting virgins to death by having the guards rape them before killing them.

Is this done in Nebraska in the twenty-first century? What is he talking about? Cite chapter and verse, please from a credible source, please, so we can all feel dismayed by the Judeo-Christian tradition.

Kirby Olson said...

For anybody who can take it, the novels of Farnoosh Moshiri are filled with such incidents. Moshiri lived through the Iranian Revolution, but almost her entire family died in incidents such as the one described. Law under the Ayatollahs is hard to understand as being associated with our own laws, but I guess Jason sees some comparison that the rest of us can't. Either he's a genius or a dupe.

The Drill SGT said...

Kirby,

He must mean Cain and Abel, or

Piliate and Jesus, though that was just politics

or perhaps

David and Bathsheba

The River Otter said...

Don't.
Feed.
The.
Trolls.

Nice rebuttals, though!

SteveR said...

It's the 21st century, please stop going so far at making yourself look absolutely stupid Jason.

NKVD said...

We now live in the ummah. North Carolina is part of the ummah - muslims pray all over the place and claim territory as they do so. Chicago - don't get me started. They have elected a congress critter in Michigan. Get used to it - sharia is happening all across this formerly great country and the next generation thinks its just swell.

theobromophile said...

Jason (the commenter): I have three Bibles, all different translations. If you're using something that is NOT New American Standard, KJV, or NIV, I'll find it online. "It," of course, is the place in the Bible wherein Christians are commanded to rape girls before executing them.

I'll also accept a part of the Christian religion in which modern day (i.e. 21st century) Christians, qua Christians, commit such atrocities, and do so with the sanction of the larger Christian community.

--

This is sick. I really want to cry and throw up at the thought of living in a world in which it is acceptable to do that to other human beings.

What also pisses me off is the way that modern liberals like this religion. As a feminist, it angers me to no end to see people say that Muslims deserve their own culture, that dissuading immigrants from committing honour killings is cultural imperialism, and that there is a legitimate debate about the burqa. It's ignorant and sick and enables men to harm women in the worst possible way.

Richard said...

I agree with Jason. We should make a list of all the groups who can comment on this and those who shouldn't.

Donn said...

The point is unfreedom and tyranny, which all utopianisms (whether religious, like Iran, or atheistic, like communism) inevitably lead to.

Exactly right.

The Drill SGT said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
The Drill SGT said...

The irony of course is that the same liberal who objects to the death penalty in general, and specifically for a minor, even when he commits a horrific killing, has no problem if Iran executes some 16 y/o girl for holding hands with her BF. (adultery). Now we find that the girl needs to be raped first?

But that isn't a problem for some because all cultures are equal. (acually all are superior to ours according to many)

David said...

My first reaction was also, "is this really true?" It's so horrible that it sounds like propaganda. You just want it not to be true.

But you have to remember how intensely the Iranian fundamentalists want to maintain their absolute domination over women. There are millions of educated women in Iran, some with a strong interest in Western ideals. This must seem horribly dangerous to the haters of women, and permit all kinds of horror.

How will Obama's engagement ever deal with a society that permits--indeed encourages--this kind of thing to happen?

Ralph L said...

Anyone want to remind us of the Spanish Inquisition
I knew that was coming!

NKVD said...

Obama is on the same side as the mullahs.

The difference between the communist's workers paradise and islam is that the former can be disproved by simply paying attention. We need to kill muslims to make them understand that their ideas are faulty. Time to meet allah, boys - but since you raped all the virgins, you are going to be disappointed.

bagoh20 said...

"The difference is not between religions, instead the difference is between those societies that have a separation between religion and state and those that don't. It appears that better educated and more urban Iranians are starting to wake up to this fact and fighting in the streets for change."

That's not it as clearly demonstrated by those wonderfully compassionate communists in the USSR, China, Cambodia, etc who kept religion out of power, yet hold the record for mistreatment of their people.

People in power do these things because they can. Only a system of legal restraint and shared power to enforce it can prevent this.

Even then, you may get mass execution of the weak as with abortion in our enlightened society.

It has nothing particular to do with religion, but rather the nature of people when empowered and how their particular society's norms control it, period.

Religion is SOMETIMES just one of the endless reasons people will use to justify and codify why they are brutal.

William said...

Some time back a Canadian journalist of Iranian descent died in police custody. The doctor who performed the autopsy fled to the west. He claimed that she had been raped and then beaten to death. The story caused a momentary stir but not nearly so much as the story of the three AQ prisoners who had been waterboarded by us......I think a lot of sexual anxiety is enshrined in religion. I was raised as a Catholic and, God knows, a Catholic upbringing can cause a certain amount of repression. I think a just God will punish me severely for having deprived so many Victoria Secret models of the grandeur of my manroot because of religous scruples. That said, I can't see how it is possible for a man and woman in the modern world to have an equitable relationship based on the tenets of their Islamic faith. Even for men it's probably not such a good deal. Resentful women know how to get their own back......I like the Muslem heaven though. Skip the heavenly choir. All eternity at an idealized version of the Playboy Mansion. So much better than life among the sullen burquas.

MadisonMan said...

My first reaction was also, "is this really true?" It's so horrible that it sounds like propaganda. You just want it not to be true.

Why would the Jerusalem Post print anti-Iranian propaganda?

EKatz said...

This is the Canadian photojournalist - Zahra Kazemi - who was brutally raped and tortured while imprisoned in Iran, and died (warning: the story below, as others I've seen, contains graphic descriptions).

http://www.iran-press-service.com/ips/articles-2005/april-2005/kazemi_report_1405.shtml

Rape is generally used as a weapon against women, and it's an especially malicious weapon in cultures where the rape victim is seen as being shamed and bringing shame on her family/clan.

Beth said...

Marjane Satrapi depicted this atrocity in her memoir, Persepolis. It happened to someone known to her family - with the added indignity of the rapist demanding her dowry - and is one of the factors that influenced Satrapi's parents to finally send her out of the country.

dcm said...

'taint the religion. there are sick fucks everywhere. don't blame the christian religion for what warren jeffs was doing down in AZ.

class-factotum said...

Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition.

EKatz said...

"taint the religion. there are sick fucks everywhere. don't blame the christian religion for what warren jeffs was doing down in AZ."


One of the key factors to consider is whether these sick atrocities are politically and/or culturally sanctioned. There are many places where, for example, "honor killings" of rape victims is seen as permissible or understandable by the wider culture, and not simply as acts committed by "sick fucks" (or if not honor killings, then the banning or shunning of rape victims - as you see in places like the Congo, where gang-rape victims are often kicked out of their families and forbidden from returning to their villages).

In Iran there are those that permit and view as acceptable the "rape as punishment and shaming of female prisoners"... and there are others in Iran who are protesting this barbarism.

Another example is in Pakistan, where in rural areas you see rape meted out as a punishment to women (if, for example, her family wronged another higher-ranking family, she will be subjected to rape as a means of "justice", to put her family back in its place by bringing shame on them).

A well-known victim of this practice is Mukhtar Mai, who courageously decided to speak out against her attackers
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/4322021.stm

There are plenty of people there who do not see her attackers as "sick fucks" but as reasonable men who have helped enforce local law.

Jason (the commenter) said...

Perhaps I'm not making myself clear.

It always seems to be Islam's turn to be condemned in its entirety for something a certain percentage of its followers do.

Any horrible act you want to lay at Islam's door, you will find the same sort of thing in the bible, in the Old Testament. Forget the historical things: Christians killing Christians, murdering and raping each other. I'm talking about stuff in the holy books in your homes that you don't even have the decency (apparently) to acknowledge.

Christianity and Judaism are both so drenched in blood that it is ridiculous for either of them to try besmirching Islam for even something as heinous as raping virgins before executing them.

I remember the Midianites, and all the others!

dcm said...

Yes, there are political and cultural shit behind this. but be careful when one says that it is the religion itself. it is awfully easy to blame islam, or any outside group, for atrocities. yes, the extreme islam is a hell of a lot worse than i see in wisconsin. i have yet to see a young thirteen year old form poynette raped and hung. but there are folks in christian countries that have done as bad. it is easy to knock a religion or culture. it makes us feel good.

NKVD said...

And moral relativism makes liberals feel good. Keep it up, dcm - trust me, you are in their sights.

Jason (the commenter) said...

dcm : it is easy to knock a religion or culture. it makes us feel good.

The other day I was defending Christians from Atheists. It was almost the exact same discussion!

Dust Bunny Queen said...

"Anyone want to remind us of the Spanish Inquisition"

I knew that was coming!

What!! No one expects the Spanish Inquisition.....

Seriously though...these depths of depravity and our weakness in trying to rationalize such evil will lead to our demise. Maybe we deserve it if we don't rise up against such obvious, hideous wrongs.

To think that we can "reason" with this mind set is in itself a sympton of insanity.

Penny said...

Running all through this article are quotes like, "I did as I was told." "I have no regrets, well except this one time..."

It seems the young man was moving through some expectations that were set for him, and most of us see that as a gross excuse for not thinking.

At least he surely wasn't thinking the way WE would think.

There are many "thinkers" here at Althouse, who more often than not, disagree on just about everything, yet we can't quite understand how that might happen to groups somewhere out T H E R E.

Dust Bunny Queen said...

ime to meet allah, boys - but since you raped all the virgins, you are going to be disappointed.

Um... the irony would be that those virtual virgins in the after life are Catholic Nuns.....with rulers!!! Karma

Synova said...

"Perhaps I'm not making myself clear."

You could always talk louder.

In any case... you are clear. Plenty. But rather than pose an argument that shows that this sort of thing has widespread condemnation among Islam, that it's a case of an evil regime using religion as an excuse (and about 20 years ago at that)... you attack the moral authority of those who DO condemn it.

The moral of the story about only those without sin throwing the first stone is that there ARE none without sin and that should lead to compassion toward the sinner.

But you'd defend those set to stone the woman to death on account of there is no one available to denounce them because no one lives up to the standards of Jesus Christ.

The argument fails as *any* argument that relies on equivalency *fails*.

If you want to defend Islam from being painted with this broad brush SHOW US where Islam is standing up against this sort of thing.

EKatz said it very well: "One of the key factors to consider is whether these sick atrocities are politically and/or culturally sanctioned."

In this case the sick atrocity was *officially* sanctioned by an *officially* Islamic Theocratic State.

But hey... maybe it was 20 years ago... when this guard was 18. Maybe times are changing in Iran. And maybe if more people realized that this did, indeed, reflect on all of Islam, that the rest of Islam will be shamed enough to get their heads out of their prehistoric butts and do something about it.

When little girls of 9 years are no longer "legal" adults facing adult sentences, women are no longer stoned to death for being raped (and that's a bit of legal hokus-pokus, too... men convicted of rape must be killed, so all rape victims magically become adultresses who asked for it.) When that sort of thing stops being encoded in LAW then maybe you can lecture people about painting an entire religion with the same brush.

Eli Blake said...

In the Cambodian killing fields under the Khmer Rouge, the story is told that in order to only execute guilty people, they made each person execute the previous person, then found them guilty of murder on the spot and had the next prisoner in line execute the 'murderer.'

Human depravity mixed with spurious logic knoweth no bounds.

Cedarford said...

Jason's point about past blood-drenched misdeeds by Jews and Christians is true...and even today, repellent acts are done by Christian nations and by Zionists. And he is right that "All Muslims are bad" thinking is too broad.

But in the here and now, the Muslims have the bigger problem. There is far more slaughter and butchery to face, by their own, and admit to, and try and stop. And part of that problem is the hestitation Muslims seem to have to confront evil by "Brother Muslims"....the silence.

-------------
I don't wholly buy this story as true, BTW, echoing:

Hunter McDaniel said...
Am I the only one who wonders whether this story is, you know, actually true? Or maybe Scott Beauchamp has a cousin in Iran?
.

I find the "tormented Winter Soldier atrocity-committer" stories, the 'reformed Stasi prison interogator", tales or the Scott Beauchamps particularly likely to be false or self-serving confessionals.

Take this tale with some skepticism. The fact that some land is in a very fouled up time, and atrocities are going on is in fact the perfect breeding ground for liars, manipulators, self-promoters to make their entrance to a credulous audience. An audience desperately wanting to believe their "testimony" that fits their agenda so well, must be true. (see Kerry's Ghengis Kahns, phony SEAL stories, fake POW tales, Kuwaiti babies dumped from incubators, vast hoards of buried WMD weapons)...

Wait and see. My guess is the tales of mass rape and executions of young girls in Iran is made up...or quite rare...rare enough that no guard would ever find it habitual..

Eli Blake said...

And, just to make sure that they were not under any condemnation from God, the English shaved all the hair off of Joan of Arc and then raped her before burning her at the stake.

Eli Blake said...

Another tactic of the Khmer Rouge was to force children, often in a group to be the executioners.

Revenant said...

If you're a Christian or a Jew you have no business talking.

Correction: if you're a Christian and hundreds of years old, or a Jew and thousands of years old, you have no business talking.

Oddly enough, no such people actually exist. So I guess Jews and Christians can go right on talking. :)

Jason (the commenter) said...

Synova : The moral of the story about only those without sin throwing the first stone is that there ARE none without sin and that should lead to compassion toward the sinner.

Even if Christianity didn't have its moral baggage it would still be wrong for Christians to condemn all of Islam for the actions of some. That it does, merely makes their statements sound ridiculous.

I think there is a reason for the broad condemnations though. I think the people who make them are racists and religious bigots. And are just looking for a reason to be able to express their hatred openly. Perhaps I'm wrong, but that's the impression I get and why I react to such statements so vehemently.

I hear people speak ill of moral relativism, then I hear them treat two different religions which have a history of atrocities being committed in their names, in different ways. One is condemned, one is forgiven.

Jason (the commenter) said...

Revenent : Oddly enough, no such people actually exist. So I guess Jews and Christians can go right on talking. :)

It would probably sound more convincing if Jews and Christians didn't keep the bloody atrocities in their holy books and call them righteous.

miller said...

Look! Over there!

Don't look at what actually happened in Iran. Instead, think deeply about your own racist past. That should keep you busy until the Iranian government has knocked off the protesters.

Synova said...

"I hear them treat two different religions which have a history of atrocities being committed in their names,"

The only problem is... with one of those religions, it's not history.

And if this *particular* story is not true... it is a *fact* that rape victims are stoned in Iran *today*, gay men are hanged to death in Iran *today*, rape as punishment happens in Pakistan *today*, female genital mutilation is tolerated in Muslim Africa *today*, honor killings happen in Canada *today*, women can not walk safely with their heads uncovered in France *today*...

And we aren't supposed to shame the *good* Muslims into doing anything about it.

Because that's not nice and tolerant and confirming.

Penny said...

"Look! Over there!"

See, see! He's worse than me!

We just LOVE that kind of rationale whereby we somehow feel better by putting down someone else for not being exactly like we are, or thinking exactly as we do.

Before we head over to Iran to right their wrongs, it might not be a bad idea to figure out how to consistently get along with each other here without pulling the "I'm in the majority" card.

Um, because,...well, it's good to learn those skills close to home...if you get my drift.

Synova said...

Oh, and Jason... there are Christians who want to remove all the "icky" parts from the Bible, too, so they never have to face them.

Sort of like purging a History book, favoring warm fuzzy feelings over stark honesty or the bother of understanding.

Synova said...

"Um, because,...well, it's good to learn those skills close to home...if you get my drift."

And it's easier too.

Plus you never have to feel responsible for not doing anything at all, even symbolically, to help those people over there who are different than you are, but who are really none of your concern.

Pogo said...

I see young Muslim girls on the street every day and think of their treatment as described in Persepolis or the true story by Immaculee Ilibagiza, Left to Tell: Discovering God Amidst the Rwandan Holocaust, and I am near despair. It is as if we are reading about some primitive lands of long ago, or some just-discovered backwards culture yet to have discovered any but the most basic civil rights.

The West once prided itself on freedom, and although this was slow in coming for many people (gender, race, etc.), it came.

Yet under the banner of diversity we countenance cultures that practice the obvious enslavement of women. And nothing is said.

All the rights women gained in the past 200 years are openly mocked. And we say nothing.

How long until we speak?
I can do nothing about Iran; it is a hellhole and may remain one for ages.
But how long until we speak of the same cultural practices here, the ones that presuppose and support the rape and murder of innocent girls?

How long?

Jason (the commenter) said...

Synova : Oh, and Jason... there are Christians who want to remove all the "icky" parts from the Bible, too, so they never have to face them.

Yes, like Thomas Jefferson.

Jason (the commenter) said...

People having a strong reaction to the news, but ignoring the same stories in the bible. This is what Nietzsche was talking about.

Synova said...

Nietzsche?

Why not just go with the Hear No Evil, See No Evil, Speak No Evil monkeys?

Ralph L said...

Gomorrah and that other place paid a heavy price for rape. One time violence wasn't punished was when the early Hebrews sacked a village, which had agreed to join them, after the men had been circumcised. Some welcoming committee.

Synova said...

Not that it has anything to do with anything but the people who were massacred after being circumcised (the third day, as they were in pain) had first stolen the sister of the Hebrews involved.

Rather than kill the sister for *her* shame at being abducted, her brothers said, sure, you can keep her but only if you follow this ritual we have and then there can be peace between us.

But they lied... killed them all, and got their sister back.

It's a bloody, horrible story, but I just find it a bit hard to view it as a case where the wrong people were punished.

MnMark said...

By Jason's criteria, no one could ever criticize an atrocity committed by another group. Because somewhere, at some time in the past, your group committed an atrocity, see? And every group on earth - every religion, every race, every nation - has had someone of that group commit an atrocity at some time. So Jason, because he feels such anger for some reason at our own American cultural and religious traditions, simply can't stand it when it might look like we aren't so bad by comparison. So even though this other religion and other nation and other culture is committing atrocities that are about as bad as anything you could imagine in terms of violating every tenet of Jason's liberal beliefs - murder of homosexuals, women and girls, etc - he just can't bring himself to allow it to be said that maybe they are worse than we are. They are. In every important way. But Jason's position is so weak that he has to resort to a counter-argument so broad that it makes any talk of morality at all void.

I hope the Jasons out there someday have to live under Islamic rule. They deserve it. If they can't bring themselves to unequivocally condemn the Iranians and the Islamic religion that permits those behaviors, and to firmly say "our culture is better", then they deserve what they get as dhimmis. I just don't want to be enslaved along with them.

Synova said...

Come to think of it...

It says they stole her because she was beautiful, but it seems horribly possible, considering the "terms" arrived at, that the whole point of the abduction from the beginning was hoping to force the alliance they requested by presenting a marriage as the only way to recover the girl's honor... which would mean that she wasn't kept "safe" while negotiations went on.

Penny said...

It sure as hell is easier, Synova.

So why have we experienced so little progress here on our Althouse Easy Street?

I think it would be disingenuous to accuse anyone in the group of being uncaring about the world at large.

We seem to have more problems with figuring out if we should make a right or left turn at the stop sign just ahead.

Way too many of us think the path off Easy Street is to take a majority vote on which way to go. The truth is that we could go either way and still get to where we were heading. It might take longer, but maybe the ride is more scenic or has more wifi rest stops?

It makes little sense to me that we take so much time arguing while we might just as well be on the road singing some three part harmony.

Steven said...

"It was not that relatively long ago women were being burned at the stake on this continent for being witches."

Really?

Where?


Well, the Mexican Inquisition burned witches, and Mexico is on this continent.

Methadras said...

EKatz said...

This is the Canadian photojournalist - Zahra Kazemi - who was brutally raped and tortured while imprisoned in Iran, and died (warning: the story below, as others I've seen, contains graphic descriptions).

http://www.iran-press-service.com/ips/articles-2005/april-2005/kazemi_report_1405.shtml

Rape is generally used as a weapon against women, and it's an especially malicious weapon in cultures where the rape victim is seen as being shamed and bringing shame on her family/clan.


Maybe the Congolese learned it from the Iranians. However, it could be the other way around from the depictions. The Congolese have entire rape squads. Maybe that will be on Iran's to-do list really soon, right after acquiring the bomb.

Methadras said...

Jason, trying the moral equivalency argument just makes that much of a malicious joke in the defense of the indefensible. Also, trying to equate the distinction of old testament without the understanding of the new testament is religiously disingenuous and shows a lack of understanding of either testaments.

bearbee said...

How will Obama's engagement ever deal with a society that permits--indeed encourages--this kind of thing to happen?

We will sit down and reason together about human rights. Surely O's Cairo speech must have resonated positively.

Hmmm......perhaps not....

However, the spiritual leader of JI, the cleric Abu Bakar Bashir, appeared in a video on a radical Islamist Web site muslimdaily.net on June 14, calling for renewed international jihad, specifically citing an attack on a mosque in Thailand and calling for Indonesian Muslims to join the insurgency there. Bashir alluded to US President Barack Obama’s speech to the Muslim world from Cairo, Egypt that month, and demanded that former US President George W. Bush and Obama be “beheaded.”

Jason (the commenter) said...

MnMark : By Jason's criteria

We would temper broad condemnations of other people's religions. Otherwise we encourage the type of mindset that allows atrocities and injustices to happen in the first place.

L. E. Lee said...

Some of you idiots are the same as the people who point to the widespread problem within in the Catholic Church of pedophilia and then try to condemn the whole Catholic faith.

L. E. Lee said...

You want to end these atrocities? Support separation of religion and state. Also, support civil liberties. Interesting enough it is the Palinites on this site that oppose both.

pst314 said...

"The Romans in the 1st century did something similar"

Are you unaware that this sort of thing happened all over the ancient world? That what was most notable about that atrocity was that it showed how far Imperial Rome had fallen from its Republican achievements?

The bottom line is that you just wanted to make a snarky, ignorant comment creating a false moral equivalence between the West and our Islamo-fascist enemies.

Jason said...

I just want to be clear: I am NOT Jason (the commenter!)

Maguro said...

You want to end these atrocities? Support separation of religion and state. Also, support civil liberties. Interesting enough it is the Palinites on this site that oppose both.

Well, ya see, that's kind of the problem. Islam is not just a religion, it's an all-encompassing way of life and there is no provision in the Koran for separation of church and state, as when Jesus says "Render unto Caesar...".

In Christendom the existence of two authorities goes back to the founder of Christianity, who enjoined his followers to render to Caesar that which is Caesar's and to God that which is God's. There are two powers: God and Caesar. They may be associated, they may be separated; they may be in harmony, they may be in conflict; one or the other may dominate; one may interfere, the other may protest, as we have learned recently. But always there are two: God and Caesar, Church and state. In classical Islam, that is to say in pre-Westernized Islam, there is no such distinction. There were not two powers but one, and the question of separation did not therefore arise.

- Bernard Lewis

Because of this unitary tradition, Islamic countries are far less likely than western ones to adopt the separation of religion and state that you're so fond of.

So you'll have to try again.

Just Lurking said...

"Some of you idiots are the same as the people who point to the widespread problem within in the Catholic Church of pedophilia and then try to condemn the whole Catholic faith."

Pedophilia is not a tenet of the Catholic faith. If it were, I would indeed condemn the Catholic faith.

If barbaric acts are tenets of Islam, then I condemn present day Islam as a barbaric faith. If they are not part of the Islamic religion, but are accepted as part of Muslim society, then I condemn present Muslim society as barbaric.

Darcy said...

Seriously though...these depths of depravity and our weakness in trying to rationalize such evil will lead to our demise. Maybe we deserve it if we don't rise up against such obvious, hideous wrongs.

To think that we can "reason" with this mind set is in itself a symptom of insanity.


That's so right, DBQ.

It sickens me that the world is not screaming about these atrocities daily. Especially the women of the world! Where are they for the most part? And the news media?

Anybody see the movie The Stoning of Soraya M.? Blake has an excellent (but chilling) review of it here.

I guess we have better things to do than be concerned about this stuff. And we have no moral authority (apparently) to criticize here, after all. Really, really sickening how we rationalize that.

Just Lurking said...

If a person, society, religion, etc. condones acts I find horrific, as a rational person I am expected to condemn them; regardless of what my brutal ancestors may have done.

Deconstructionists can play the game where all is relative to the point where all words can be anything, and end up meaning nothing. To me that is a dangerous mindset, since it is not conducive to a rational existence, and I have no time for it.

The acts described in the posting are atrocious, and moral people should be outraged. I know what is meant by words like "atrocious" and "moral", as do all honest people, even Muslims.

If Muslim society wants respect, it needs to oust the barbaric customs that are accepted in their society. Just as Western society and religions have done, and hopefully, will continue to do.

Yes, no one is perfect. But if perfection were a requirement for critical thinking then we would never advance.

Hoosier Daddy said...

Please spare me the equivalency arguments comparing the evils of Christianity that occured a millenia ago with the current depravity of the religion of peace. Telling me I can't slam a religion that in the 21st century approves stoning women for adultry or beheading people because 700 years ago Christians were mean folks is ridiculous.

Hey how about demanding that Islam reform? How about we insist that calling for death to the infidel is not allowed in polite society? I mean Gisele Bundchen once remarked to an interview that the Catholic Church needs to be progressive! if it wants more followers. Really? Well Islam is the fastest growing religion on the planet and conincidently is the most repressive.

I think the knee jerk reaction of people who decry any criticism of the so called Religion of Peace is quite telling.

Darcy said...

That was beautiful, Just Lurking. And if we don't condemn it, as DBQ says, we are lost ourselves.

Fred4Pres said...

This story is horrifying, but there is something potentially odd about it too. I am curious what these young women did to get sentanced to death that still left them virgins (I assume fornication and adultry are the big death sentance issues in Iran). Was it drugs? Seems like a girl who would engage in drugs would likely not be a virgin. What was their alleged crime?

EKatz said...

Another thing to point out... within repressive countries/societies/communities there are almost always people who are speaking out against the atrocities and violations, often at great risk to their own lives and well-being. This is true in Iran, it's true in Pakistan, it's true in many places.

A lot of times these dissidents will seek (or hope for) international awareness and support for their cause, the added power of many voices speaking with them and showing solidarity in their fight against oppression and brutality. Support from people in the western world - including not only governments but the media, human rights organizations, and peaceful protestors and informed citizens - is important to them... at the very least for morale and knowing that they're not alone and are not condemned to speak out and suffer alone. That people are giving voice to their cause.

Instead of a knee-jerk reaction that condemns any criticism as "Islamophobic" (I term I hear all the time in academia), consider the Muslims who are trying to reform their religion or their societies. Are the Muslims struggling against these practices also "anti-Muslim"? Of course not.

They're not helped if, instead of speaking with our conscience, we start spouting clever equivocations or turning our back on dissidents and victims because we want to appear politically correct or appeal to various "cultural spokesmen" who are quick with hypocritical accusations of racism/intolerance (even as they themselves perpetrate and condone racist, bigoted and misogynistic practices in their communities).

Yes, violence has always existed; it has existed in all parts of the world, for centuries all the way back to when we were still walking around stooped over. It also continues to exist. Imperfect as we all are, we're in a position these days to find out about what's going on all over the globe (in our own countries and abroad), inform ourselves, speak out and lend support where we feel it's due.

EKatz said...

"I am curious what these young women did to get sentanced to death that still left them virgins (I assume fornication and adultry are the big death sentance issues in Iran). Was it drugs? Seems like a girl who would engage in drugs would likely not be a virgin. What was their alleged crime?"

I've read about teenage girls and women in Iran sentenced to death for being members of the Bahai Faith, like teenaged Mona Mahmudnizhad.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mona_Mahmudnizhad

Especially in the earlier years of the revolution, there were teenagers sentenced to death for being politically outspoken or smuggling or circulating "forbidden literature" that could be considered treasonous. Also if they did not accept what the regime considered to be Islamic practices, or if their families were members of political/ethnic groups considered dangerous to the new regime. (Many women, men and boys also were executed for the same reasons).

There are also drug offenses, and these have mainly affected teenaged boys, it seems.

And while "being unchaste" (including being raped/abused) can also lead to the death penalty or severe beatings/lashings for young girls, there have also been girls and women who have murdered their would-be rapists or abusers in self-defense... and were then accused of murder outright.

traditionalguy said...

L E Lee... I qualify for your Palinite label, but I oppose a state mandated Church membership or church dues. And I have never opposed a civil right, especially those in the Bill of Rights #1 Amendment, and to my knowledge neither has Sarah Palin either. So you seem to be very confused about Palin's views.In respect to women's civil rights, the tradition itself comes from early American frontiere communities practicing as Methodists and Presbyterians enlightened by Christian scriptures and real life.

L. E. Lee said...

There is no doubt that the Arab world is behind the West in getting magical thinking (religion) out of the public square. Hopefully we will see an Arab ACLU in our life time.

Synova said...

"Some of you idiots are the same as the people who point to the widespread problem within in the Catholic Church of pedophilia and then try to condemn the whole Catholic faith."

And can you point to *anything* in the Catholic Church that supports pedophilia or any*one* in the Catholic Church that does not condemn it?

Synova said...

"You want to end these atrocities? Support separation of religion and state. Also, support civil liberties. Interesting enough it is the Palinites on this site that oppose both."

Really? Who, on this site, has ever opposed the separation of church and state or opposed civil liberties and the right to be a "secular" person?

On the contrary... name a theocratic state in the world that is not Islamic. (Heck, not even Israel is run by the rabbis.) What religion includes leaders who have explained that the religion itself is incompatible with democracy?

And who has defended the abuse of anything like "civil rights" on the basis that we can't impose our beliefs on others?

Once upon a time liberals and feminists used to insist that Something Be Done... but they abandoned that 8 years ago when it became more important to hate Bush than to do something about the fate of women in Afghanistan.

BJM said...

Fred 4Pres @5:58 PM

the "enemy" are their own people

We are quickly going down this path with the personal destruction of those who publicly oppose Obama or Dem policies.

traditionalguy said...

Raping and murdering teenage virgins the same day. Now that sounds a whole lot like a war. A man"s Army has conquered the women's country. Now let the fun and games begin.It is very close to the Japanese Army's treatment of Chinese women and the Russian Army's treatment of German women. Perhaps what we need to do is send military aid and training to the women in Iran.

edwardroyce said...

Wow.

1. As a man I'd rather cut my own throat than have a job raping virgins.

"Hell is empty, and all the Devils are here"

2. Witch burnings in Europe weren't about religion. They were about stealing property. Basically I believe Church law required the "witch" to be burned at the stake or somesuch in order for the burners to steal that person's property.

3. As far as "Jason (the commenter)" goes would it be impolite of me to point out that the hundreds of millions of people that have been murdered, or are being murdered now, by atheists in just the last 60 years far exceed anything that Christian churches have collectively done in the past 2,000 years?

At the rate atheists have been slaughtering people on an averaged annual basis if that were stretched out to cover 2,000 years we'd see a death toll in the hundreds of billions.

Synova said...

"1. As a man I'd rather cut my own throat than have a job raping virgins."

What I find remarkable is that someone exposed to this and made to participate in this as a teenager, as an 18 year old, was able to recognize that it was wrong and to have regrets and much later, as an adult, retain enough basic decency that he put himself at risk by releasing youngsters without authorization in order to save them from being incarcerated even for a short time.

Kirby Olson said...

The stories are true, and are part of contemporary Iranian LAW. Read the books by Farnoosh Moshiri such as At The Wall of the Almighty, or a much shorter one called The Crazy Dervish.

It's one thing with Cain and Abel where Cain does what he does against the law.

But it is the law that DEMANDS the virgins be raped. It's all part of a system of terror on which the mullahs depend for their continuing system of power.

The west had a similar system especially under the Catholics with their Inquisition during the Counter Reformation.

But this has mostly been undone in the west. That it is still going on in the East and that the people of the west like Jason think it's something that we can't talk about because we've overcome a similar past is part of what education is doing to our young.

They think they can't ever judge.

but we do have to judge. And what these guards were doing in the name of the Law is not just. Shooting Neda was also not just...

Farnoosh Moshiri's books have MANY more details than the little excerpt here provides.

edwardroyce said...

I guess it involves crazy legal logic like under the English common law it was illegal to hang a pregnant woman. This is because the child was considered, then, a separate innocent person who would suffer unreasonably for the actions of the mother.

This lead to a standard defense for women who would "plead her belly" to escape execution for the nine months or so for the child to be born or for the ruse, if not actually pregnant, to be discovered.

Methadras said...

L. E. Lee said...

You want to end these atrocities? Support separation of religion and state. Also, support civil liberties. Interesting enough it is the Palinites on this site that oppose both.


We end these atrocities by either eliminating the religious/political institutions that allow them to happen or you allow them to continue and let the respective societal evolution deal with the problem by becoming so enraged by these activities that they rise up and stamp them out in their own special way. I support civil liberties, but not as they would be defined by someone like you. Besides, which state sanctioned religion do you want eliminated? I know in the US we don't have a state sanctioned religion and by defacto we already have a separation. I'm betting you that Jefferson, may he rest in peace and wherever he may be, is kicking himself in the ass over that clause in that letter to the Danbury Baptists and how many problems it has caused.

L. E. Lee said...

There is no doubt that the Arab world is behind the West in getting magical thinking (religion) out of the public square. Hopefully we will see an Arab ACLU in our life time.


Oh dear, another buffoonish sentiment that religion equates to magical thinking by someone who doesn't seem to be able to apply rational thought to what religion is or does and how people have vastly benefited from it than have been hindered by it. The body count alone from the irreligious like you is testament to which side I'd rather be on. Also, you may have overlooked that Arabs already have their own ACLU. It's called CAIR. An organization that has taken the very communist/leftist playbook from the ACLU and have tried to use it with some sort of effect here in the States. Welcome to today.