September 13, 2010

There's good reason to love Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf.

As a consequence of his proposal to build a mosque 2 blocks from Ground Zero, Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf has become quite famous — specifically famous for his assurances of moderation and his asserted desire to promote intercultural connection and harmony. You can doubt his motives or be suspicious of whether he's really at heart all that moderate. But the fact remains: He's world famous for his moderation now, and he's going to have to stick to it. That's great, isn't it?
Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf promised on Monday to resolve the fierce dispute around plans to build a Muslim community center and mosque two blocks from ground zero, while noting that he does not believe the spot chosen for the center is “hallowed ground.”

Speaking at the Council on Foreign Relations, he promised to find a way out of the current impasse around the planned center, which opponents say is insensitive to the memory of 9/11 and which supporters say sends the opposite message, that Muslims, like other Americans, object to and were victims of the attacks.

“Everything is on the table,” he said. “We really are focused on solving it” in a way that will be best for everyone concerned, he added. “I give you my pledge.”
He may not have meant to get himself into this position. But he's now the designated moderate imam. He's pretty much going to have to play out his role, and it's great to have someone in that role. Is he the one who deserves all this attention? Is he all that well suited to speak for others and follow through as a force for moderation? Who knows? But he's here now, and circumstances have bestowed this prominence and responsibility on him. It will be exceedingly difficult for him to back out of it now. He will have to be the man events have chosen him to be. And we need that man.

I celebrate Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf.

94 comments:

Fen said...

Taqiya

Fred4Pres said...

I disagree

The Crack Emcee said...

You celebrate who? And let me get this straight: after the disaster of Obama, you've got another guy who's "The One" now? And is "healing" involved in his new job description in any way? C'mon, Ann:

Skepticism.

El Pollo Real said...

The Imam seems to have done nothing to counter the notion of a Victory Mosque (saying it is not does not count). The Victory Mosque is the notion people detest. People don't give a shit about a Mosque in other parts of NYC.

If he losses face because he cannot achieve a victory mosque--all the better. If he fails to convince that Cordoba House is not a victory Mosque, it is his fault.

The sides are drawn. He is in a tough position, and I am not on your side Althouse.

Fred4Pres said...

Anyone who equates protesting this Cordoba House in that location with the madness of Islamic extremism is not a "moderate". It is deeply offensive statement and I despise Rauf for saying that and what he is doing. Rauf is a shameful man.

Now I assume Rauf is a law abdiding person. I assume Rauf is a peaceful man who would not ever engage in terrorism.

But Rauf is more concerned with his project than any hurt feelings. Because Islam comes first. If this is about building bridges, it has failed miserably.

The Pope moved a convent from Auschwitz to avoid hurt feelings. That was the correct move on the Pope's part. Rauf does not care about that. He ignores that his fellow Muslims created that crater two blocks away. Rauf even said we were accessories to the crime. We will not forget.

TMink said...

I like to see what people do before I celebrate them.

But then, I did not vote for Obama. 8)

Trey

virgil xenophon said...

Surly you jest, Ann, surly you jest....either that or you really ARE a "useful idiot."

Gabriel Hanna said...

Nothing prevents Rauf from talking moderately to some groups and immoderately to others--lots of Muslim leaders do this, the Palestinian Authority does nothing else.

Fred4Pres said...

You might as well eat 400 oysters, vomit, and eat them again, if you are believing this crap from Rauf.

Charlie Martin said...

He's world famous for his moderation now, and he's going to have to stick to it. That's great, isn't it?

Only if he agrees.

El Pollo Real said...

P.S. Just to riff on your title, it is possible to love someone without loving what they do.

Bender said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Bender said...

He's world famous for his moderation now, and he's going to have to stick to it

He's going to have to stick to it? Says who?

That is a western standard you are applying.

But the Koran clearly states that it is perfectly acceptable, if not strategically preferable, to lie to and mislead the infidel.

To be sure, according to the Koran, even Allah is not required to stick to what he says.

Almost Ali said...

Imam Ruaf is a Muslim, which is antithetical to moderation.

It's time our government publicly admit this fact, and reclassify Islam as a violent political movement bent on our destruction. Absolutely hellbent on our destruction.

Methadras said...

He's a puppet at best and a deliberate liar at worst. He is no more moderate than a jihadist wants martyrdom. This notion of a moderate muslim needs to stop and I can't believe you are falling for this or anyone else is at all. Oh, to be a fly on the phone calls and the behind the scenes going on with this guy and his handlers.

dick said...

Why would it be difficult for him to back out of it now. Obama has backed out of almost all the things he said during the campaign. Remember how the laws were going to be on the internet for 5 days before voting? How the discussions on the HCR were to be broadcast on CSPAN? How about no tax increases for under $250K? Want to keep your healthcare plan you can? Close Gitmo by the end of the year? Unemployment would not exceed 8%?

If Obama can step back from these, then the Imam can easily just step back from what he said here. From what I have read he has been fund raising while supposedly traveling for our State Dept - a big nono. When is he going to release the sources of his funds and when is he going to try to close on the building. He has not done that yet and from what I read he does not have the funds to do so.

Please don't get sucked in by this one as you did by Obama. You are better than that and you should be able to see through these flimflam artists better than you have so far.

former law student said...

But the Koran clearly states that it is perfectly acceptable, if not strategically preferable, to lie to and mislead the infidel.


Which Surah is this?

I'm reminded of the fake quote from the Talmud "clearly stating" that it was no sin to steal from a Gentile (or lie to one, or kill one, etc. etc.).

former law student said...

How about no tax increases for under $250K?

Has anyone's taxes gone up? Except for smokers, that is.

Almost Ali said...

“Lying is not permitted except in three cases: a man speaking to his wife to make her happy; lying in times of war; and lying in order to reconcile between people.” (Tirmidhi)

“Enmity and hatred will reign between us until ye believe in Allah alone.” (Qur’an 60:4)

Luke Lea said...

I just caught him on C-Span addressing the Council on Foreign Relations. He is clearly not an evil man, but unfortunately he is also pretty clearly stupid. There must be some smart moderate Muslims out there somewhere.

former law student said...

Obama has backed out of almost all the things he said during the campaign.

Actually his batting average is pretty hight: http://politifact.com/truth-o-meter/promises/browse/

the laws were going to be on the internet for 5 days before voting?

Actually, passed laws were to be on whitehouse.gov five days before signing. (Promise 234) Obama did break this promise multiple times; the first with the Lily Leadbetter Fair Pay Act.

Revenant said...

If he was labeled a moderate without being one thus far, why would he need to start acting like one now?

John Lynch said...

No, he doesn't.

He can be moderate to the media audience and radical to the Muslim audience. You know, like every other leader in the Arab world.

Seems to work for them.

Revenant said...

Has anyone's taxes gone up?

Mine have.

Methadras said...

former law student said...

But the Koran clearly states that it is perfectly acceptable, if not strategically preferable, to lie to and mislead the infidel.


Which Surah is this?

I'm reminded of the fake quote from the Talmud "clearly stating" that it was no sin to steal from a Gentile (or lie to one, or kill one, etc. etc.)


Seriously? Are you this dumb? It's called Al-Takeyya and under such a principal, all kinds of things a muslim can do and get away with it. Here is the surrah from one of my many Qur'an(ic) translations (I own several):

Let not the believers Take for friends or helpers Unbelievers rather than believers: if any do that, in nothing will there be help from Allah: except by way of precaution, that ye may guard yourselves from them. But Allah cautions you Himself; for the final goal is to Allah." Surah 3:28

The initial idea is that you can lie, cheat, & steal. This verse alone is a loophole that lets a Muslim pretend to befriend and infidel, and still appear to not have violated any tenant of islam or the faiths. The idea of Takeyya for a Muslim is to become contrary to Islam while not becoming an infidel/apostate yourself so long as you do not mean it in your heart. This loophole allows anything that would subvert an infidel and their cause.

jr565 said...

Former law student wrote:
Which Surah is this?

I'm reminded of the fake quote from the Talmud "clearly stating" that it was no sin to steal from a Gentile (or lie to one, or kill one, etc. etc.).


It's called taqiyya and is not fake at all. Here are a few quotes:
From the koran verse 3.28 "Let believers [Muslims] not take infidels [non-Muslims] for friends and allies instead of believers. Whoever does this shall have no relationship left with God--unless you but guard yourselves against them, taking precautions.""

The interpretation of this verse by Al-Tabari:
If you [Muslims] are under their [non-Muslims'] authority, fearing for yourselves, behave loyally to them with your tongue while harboring inner animosity for them … [know that] God has forbidden believers from being friendly or on intimate terms with the infidels rather than other believers—except when infidels are above them [in authority]. Should that be the case, let them act friendly towards them while preserving their religion."

Oligonicella said...

You have been and are gullible.

jimspice said...

Uh, ope, yeh, here it comes. Braaap. Tasted a bit of lunch there.

Seven Machos said...

I really don't understand what the complaint is about this guy. Do you really think he isn't fully vetted, investigated, and watched by the federal government?

Furthermore, you are not making any friends in the Muslim world when you sit here and snidely say that all Muslims are sneaky bastards who perpetually lie to Kaffir Westerners. You're gonna have to deal with Muslims, people. That's the facts of globalism, Jack. You can pick guys like this guy, or guys like the September 11 guys.

mythusmage said...

What's the difference between a radical Nazi and a moderate Nazi?

A radical Nazi wants to gas the Jews and just get rid of them. A moderate Nazi will be merciful and let the Jews starve to death.

Seven Machos said...

At post 30, Godwin's Law is violated in substance and, apparently, all Muslims are compared to all Nazis and found similar.

Come on, people. Let's get past our preconceived notions about a billion people based on a few thousand Arabs among them, 19 and one in particular. Let's try to accept the idea that the Orient, like our Occident, is filled with a few fascist assholes but mostly populated with people who are just trying to get along with their lives and who have the same basic aspirations we have. Let's also realize that we are going to have engage the Muslim world one way or another, and let's stipulate that a peaceful tolerant way would be better than the bombing, killing way.

Seven Machos said...

Also, a suggestion, which Althouse suggested first: to the extent that you are angry about this mosque, you are really just feeling impotent because 10 years on there's about to be a mosque near Ground Zero but the place is otherwise largely a hole in the ground.

Why blame Islam for a failure of Western will and its awful bureaucracy?

Seven Machos said...

...Western bureaucracy, not Islamic.

Good night.

REI said...

Ann, you are very perceptive and totaly correct. The spotlight is on him. He is now the voice of moderate Islam. If he now does immoderate things, the world will project them onto all Islam. If he shows some wisdom and quiets the uproar, all Islam will be expected to behave as he did or be condemned.

Your wisdom and perception are amazing, and one of the reasons I never miss a day of Althouse.

GMay said...

7M said: "Do you really think he isn't fully vetted, investigated, and watched by the federal government?"

The federal government, this administration in particular, seems to have a bit of a history appointing people to rather prominent positions without vetting them. I find this to be the least persuasive among your arguments here.

"Furthermore, you are not making any friends in the Muslim world when you sit here and snidely say that all Muslims are sneaky bastards who perpetually lie to Kaffir Westerners."

We don't really seem to be making any friends in the Muslim world regardless. Pointing out a problem in Islamic doctrine that leads to distrust of Muslims is not our problem frankly.

"You can pick guys like this guy, or guys like the September 11 guys."

I disagree with you completely, which is highly unusual. I believe there are a few within Islam who are far more credible than this guy and they're the ones calling for a Reformation of sorts. Sadly, they get little to no recognition from neither the press nor the Islamic world in general.

"Let's get past our preconceived notions about a billion people based on a few thousand Arabs among them, 19 and one in particular."

Considering that around the borders of the expanding sphere of Islamic influence, people are have been dying at alarming rates for the past 20 years (the Phillippines, India, the Central Asian steppes, the Caucasus region, Israel, the Balkans, eastern Africa) due to Muslim-induced violence, I'd say there's a bit more than coincidence at play here.

I'll go as far as agreeing that the majority of Muslims are moderate and simply which to live in peace, however I can't agree that the radical element of Islam is the insignificant minority you portray. The facts just don't bear it out.

Fen said...

Seven: you are not making any friends in the Muslim world when you sit here and snidely say that all Muslims are sneaky bastards who perpetually lie to Kaffir Westerners.

Taqiya is part of their religion. Enough so that the tactic has its own name. So I dont understand why you think its unfair to bring it up. Its no different than presenting as evidence the habit of Christians to "turn the other cheek".

Regardless, I would like to know why you think this Iman should be trusted. I'm asking in good faith here - what are his actions that lead you to believe he is truly a moderate Islamist? What has he done to earn this trust? Please provide examples.

Sixty Grit said...

A moderate imam is like an intelligent liberal - impossible.

Nazis and muslims have the same goal - to kill all the Jews in the world. In that regard the are identical.

Fen said...

Please provide examples.

New Jersey just filed a lawsuit against the Iman, claiming he is a slum lord.

Of course, that has nothing to do with radicalism, but it does go to character.

Pogo said...

A moderate Muslim? A rare thing indeed.

But true moderation must not be judged by words, which are meaningless when lies are spoken as easily as the truth.

I await moderate Muslim actions, which are rarer than moderate Muslims.

When seen, I will embrace it.
But I very much doubt there will be moderate actions. Just lots and lots of moderate words, which fall like rain on the dust of 3000 dead.

Be said...

Toothache or Tongue-in-Cheek? If it's the former, feel better soon. If it's the latter, Thank You So Much for brightening my day.

LarsPorsena said...

"..Considering that around the borders of the expanding sphere of Islamic influence, people are have been dying at alarming rates for the past 20 years (the Philippines, India, the Central Asian steppes, the Caucasus region, Israel, the Balkans, eastern Africa) due to Muslim-induced violence, I'd say there's a bit more than coinc..."

The borders of Islam are marked with blood.

Lem said...

Honor killings are perpetrated by otherwise seemingly moderate Muslims.

When the Iman was asked about this his answer was that 90% of Sharia law already comports with our US constitution.. @55.50min

The Iman is a 90% moderate?

traditionalguy said...

The Islam deception is a cult of lies and nonsense, and as such may use its free speech in the USA. The sad part is the many good people deceived into miserable lives by this cult. We need to stand up and speak the truth about that evil cult...oh never mind that is why they have to kill us. Maybe we can not offend them by remaining forever silent...oh never mind that is what their cutting off of our heads is designed to do.

Shanna said...

while noting that he does not believe the spot chosen for the center is “hallowed ground.”

When I hear this, this is all I can think of:

But, in a larger sense, we can not dedicate -- we can not consecrate -- we can not hallow -- this ground. The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract. The world will little note, nor long remember what we say here, but it can never forget what they did here. It is for us the living, rather, to be dedicated here to the unfinished work which they who fought here have thus far so nobly advanced. It is rather for us to be here dedicated to the great task remaining before us -- that from these honored dead we take increased devotion to that cause for which they gave the last full measure of devotion -- that we here highly resolve that these dead shall not have died in vain -- that this nation, under God, shall have a new birth of freedom -- and that government of the people, by the people, for the people, shall not perish from the earth.

As for whether this guy is a moderate, you will know him by his deeds. We shall see. But I'd rather not see every muslim tar'd with the same brush.

Pogo said...

"But I'd rather not see every muslim tar'd with the same brush."

Me neither.

It would be nice if they did something moderate once in awhile though. I mean, throw me a friggin' bone here for Pete's sake.

AllenS said...

I celebrate Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf.

I'd love to hear his views on homosexuality.

AJ Lynch said...

Sorry but he looks slimy to me. Where was he born, where did he go to grade school, high school, college, where did he grow up, find his boyhood pals and grill them. Where has he worked for the last 40 years? Is it true that he is a slum landlord in New Jersey? What is your sense of his true values? Find and get me some facts.

wv = vaillues

Nichevo said...

Fucker wears eyeliner. What else do you need to know?

A.W. said...

Ann, you are so naive.

Arafat got a peace prize, speaking peace in english and terrorism in arabic. there is increasing evidence that imam feisal is using the same template.

IF we had a media that was interested in knowing the truth, of really sorting out the good muslims from the bad ones, then your thesis would make perfect sense. But right now, we have the media we have.

Paul Zrimsek said...

Once a rube, always a rube.

Paul Snively said...

Dr. Althouse: Must I point out that this is exactly the same quality of logic that you applied to your vote for the President of the United States? At this point, I'm prepared to beg you to do better.

Skyler said...

Ann, sometimes you're naively silly, but this one takes the cake.

How on earth do you conclude that this man is obliged to do anything. All he needs to do is lie long enough to get their building finished. You are ridiculous.

Michael said...

Ann, this is the same logic many of us had regarding a possible Obama presidency.

I am not sure the imam has to "stick with it" once the center is built. There is always one more qualification and interpretation to be put forth.

Nevertheless, I am with you -- because the center claims to be a CULTURAL center and to do "outreach." I am interested to see what that will look like, and I hope the country watches closely and thinks critically about it. The intersection of Islam and secular democracy is a big, nontrivial matter. It is the question that is so far unanswered. I'm hoping this will drive us to a collective answer.

Pogo said...

Is there a point of moderation between barbarism and civilization?

Edward Gibbons wrote something about that once, I think.

Scott M said...

The dusky man appears to speak with forked tongue (what's the Islamic term for that?). Even if he's being 100% earnest regarding his aims, his comment about moving the location inflaming radicals and putting our troops in harms way...as if they having tea parties (no pun) together right now....is ridiculous.

Past performance, ie the tendency for non-Muslims to simply roll over and take it up the wazoo (what's the Islamic term for that?) is not a guarantee for future results. All organic systems have a breaking point, after all. At what point do his actions inflame Americans to dangerous actions? Not your everyday dvd renters...I'm talking about the tripwire closet radicals that don't even know it themselves yet.

Joe said...

(the Crypto Jew)
1)The “Moderate” Iman, eh? Kind of like Obama has a Populist/Centrist? Simply calling him that doesn't make him that.
2)From the speech, the name “Cordoba House,” a supposed celebration of tolerance in Medieval Spain, Sure, of course Rauf fails to mention that the Jews and Christians in Cordoba were dhimmi, second-class citizens. You know paying more for services and having far fewer rights. Right off the bat, the name suggests that Rauf doesn't really grasp “moderation” or “tolerance.” His model is no better than a paternalistic Southerner proclaiming how well treated his slaves or share croppers are. Sure they can't marry his daughter/sister, and no they aren't his equals, but their lives aren't that bad, ESPECIALLY in comparison to the lives of the folks at the Lagree Plantation. It may well be that Jews had a better time of it as second-class citizens under Islam, but they doesn't make them any less second-class, nor is it a model for Modernity.
3)Finally, he talked about agendas and the use of religion for agendas, using the “Mo'toon” Controversy as an example. Whilst he admitted “some” used the cartoons as a part of their agenda, he NEVER said WHO EXACTLY was using the cartoons and WHAT their “agenda” was. IMO, a TRUE Moderate would have said, Iman Bob in Pakistan, was using this controversy to generate support for his Radical Clericalism in Pakistan, you know putting a name, a face, and an agenda to his claim. But to do so might alienate some backers, so Rauf was silent about agendas and their backers. Sorry not bitin'....
4)Finally the 90% idea for Shari'a...nice “moderation” there Rauf. How does that apply to my Life Partner and I, or our sisters/mothers and potato sacks, and how much education can they receive, and is it OK to kill them if they bring dishonour onto your family? Again, this is akin to the plantation owner saying his “darkies” are about 90% free and that Jim Crow is about 90% compatible with the US Constitution. It's no doubt true as far as it goes, but a discussion of what is NOT compatible and how Islam, not the US, must change to become compatible would be very nice, Iman.
5)Finally, OT slightly, the “moderate” Muslims in Germany were upset that Merkel met with the Mo'Toon Artist. Yeah, there's moderation. Makes me feel all snuggly, a man exercises his Freedom of Expression and has death pronounced on him, and then someone stands with this man and the Muslims are upset with that person, not the people who want him dead.

jr565 said...

Seven Machos wrote:
"Furthermore, you are not making any friends in the Muslim world when you sit here and snidely say that all Muslims are sneaky bastards who perpetually lie to Kaffir Westerners."


Those saying that were discussing a practice called Taqiyya which is in both the Koran and the Surah's which allows Muslims to lie to their enemy (and calls on Muslims to not be friends with non believers, which makes them enemies). Why would it be snide to point out a common practice in Islam? Are they (moderate muslims) ashamed of Taqiyya? Was Mohammad wrong in proclaiming that Taqiyya is ok to practice? Are moderate muslims questioning the word of Allah and their prophet?

k*thy said...

He will have to be the man events have chosen him to be. And we need that man.

There’s one thing I’ve learned for sure. It’s a life-changing thing to be in a position of needing help and being so lucky as to get it. And to feel like it’s ok. I hope that we can do that. Also, I wish Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf continued wisdom and the courage to follow through on what he is saying here.

John Burgess said...

Thanks to Fen for starting the discussion in such a productive manner!

"Muslims lie, therefore anything a Muslim says--particularly if it doesn't fit the model of a bloodthirsty jihadist--must be a lie."

Leslie said...

Any American who believes in Sharia law is not a moderate. Religious law—any religious law—is not compatible with the hard-won American division of church and state. I hope Ann is right. But the fact that the imam was on Larry King the other night saying that it's now a matter of national security that this obscenely expensive phallus to Mohammed be built in downtown Manhattan makes me dubious of his secular creds and, thus, of him.

Drew said...

But he's now the designated moderate imam. He's pretty much going to have to play out his role, and it's great to have someone in that role.

You presume that he won't get the attaboys for fooling the infidels into believing he's moderate.

Fen said...

John, they are directed by their religion to lie to infidels. Do you deny this?

And you dodged my question: "I would like to know why you think this Iman should be trusted. I'm asking in good faith here - what are his actions that lead you to believe he is truly a moderate Islamist? What has he done to earn this trust? Please provide examples."

At the very least, knowing what we do re the historical practice of taqiya, the onus should be on the Imam. Actions not words.

Almost Ali said...

NJ Town Files Suit Against Rat/Roach Slumlord Imam Feisal Raul of Ground Zero Mosque Infamy:

"The Record also reported that Rauf had ties to local waterfront developer Fred Daibes, and was sued by a Daibes associate who had charged the imam [Rauf] with mortgage fraud in 2008, a suit that was settled in June. The suit, filed today in state Superior Court in Jersey City, identifies Rauf as the sole officer of Sage Development LLC, a company based at his home address in North Bergen and listed as the owner of the two buildings. The suit also alleges that Sage’s corporate status was revoked by the state in March 2005, for its failure to file annual reports. The buildings occupy the same lot at 226 Central Ave., one containing 32 apartments and the other 16. The larger building has been vacant since Feb. 8, 2008, when a fire broke out there, one year after the city says it issued 12 separate fire code violations that Rauf ignored."

Link

AJ Lynch said...

Well John, Kathy [a non-Muslim?] just claimed the Imam is wise but did not provide any evidence. And you jump on Fen for simply revealing what many of us did not know- that the Koran says it's OK to lie to other religions.

Is that true? If so, why don't you address that little contradiction to your interfaith fantasy that all religions are the same or equal or some such drivel?

Sixty Grit said...

We have already seen muslim outreach in that area - two planes flown into buildings. That particular outreach is a great victory for muslims and they continue to dance on the graves of dead innocent victims. But such are the ways of the 7th century death cult.

And "tar'd" is either racist or a typo of what Omongrel's minions say on a regular basis.

WV: prefr - I'd prefr that we fight and kill our enemies, rather than roll over and die.

Fen said...

And now we know that the Iman is a tax cheat - claiming his one bedroom apartment as a write-off because 500 people worship there.

Again, not proof of radicalism, proof of character. Lets take the word of a slum lord who cheats on his taxes?

Sixty Grit said...

Fen, what the heck, hdhouse posts here, and we know he is a tax cheat. Oh, right, we don't take his word on anything.

Fen said...

Hey, I'm just trying to figure out what this Iman has done to earn trust. No one can give me any examples.

Pogo said...

Well, Fen, I trust that he wants me dead.

A.W. said...

Fen

> Hey, I'm just trying to figure out what this Iman has done to earn trust

no, you see the principle is "the enemy of my enemy is my friend." If you remember that to most far lefties, anyone to the right of Mao is their enemy...

pst314 said...

"But the fact remains: He's world famous for his moderation now..."

No, he's world famous for claiming that Islam is moderate--and for insisting that the West should make accommodations.

There is NO evidence that he has made any effort to persuade Muslims to embrace tolerance and peace, so why the hell do you think he's moderate? After seeing an endless succession of fake moderates touted by the chattering classes--Muslims who talked peace to the West but jihad to Muslims, you ought to be less credulous by now.

"...and he's going to have to stick to it."

Why? That is a very silly assertion. Just what will compel him? Your assertion is based on your assumption that he is a man of good will. That has not been proved, and there are plenty of indicators to suggest otherwise.

In fact, given the state of the world, any Muslim who really wanted to "build bridges" would spend virtually all his time telling Muslims that they must abandon their cruel and hateful traditions. A Muslim who spends his time telling Westerners to buy more "coexist" bumper stickers is clearly a Muslim who does not deserve respectful attention.

So, Ann, why do you keep falling for honey-tongued snakes?

Marshal said...

"I celebrate Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf."

I find this irrelevant to the matter. Even assuming the best intentions by Rauf is there any doubt the radicals will try to subvert his intentions? Rauf acknowledges seeking middle east funding, which will make him vulnerable. He's already on record saying he lives his life to become no one's enemy. This is the guy we're expecting to defend the mosque against the radicals? Not much of a champion, it seems to me.

lucid said...
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lucid said...
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lucid said...

Just for the record, so that you know I said it first:

In my view Imam Rauf is a sociopath. I don't think he has real "beliefs" but rather that he is simply being manipulative.

No sane person speaking realistically could have failed to know two things about the Ground Zero Mosque:

1. That it would be extremely provocative to most Americans.

2. That radical Muslims around the world would view the mosque as a victory mosque celebrating the attack on the World Trade Center.

He has pretended that he does not know these things.

The only way someone could pretend not to know these things and continue to do Rauf is doing is if he were fundamentally sociopathic.

former law student said...

It's called taqiyya and is not fake at all. Here are a few quotes:
From the koran verse 3.28 "Let believers [Muslims] not take infidels [non-Muslims] for friends and allies instead of believers. Whoever does this shall have no relationship left with God--unless you but guard yourselves against them, taking precautions.""

Luckily for us, Christians are not infidels. Reading a few verses later, we learn of the miraculous birth of the Messiah, Jesus, who brings the promise of the Resurrection:

[3:45] The angels said, "O Mary, GOD gives you good news: a Word from Him whose name is `The Messiah, Jesus the son of Mary. He will be prominent in this life and in the Hereafter, and one of those closest to Me.'


[3:46] "He will speak to the people from the crib, as well as an adult; he will be one of the righteous."

[3:47] She said, "My Lord, how can I have a son, when no man has touched me?" He said, "GOD thus creates whatever He wills. To have anything done, He simply says to it, `Be,' and it is.

[3:48] "He will teach him the scripture, wisdom, the Torah, and the Gospel."

[3:49] As a messenger to the Children of Israel: "I come to you with a sign from your Lord - I create for you from clay the shape of a bird, then I blow into it, and it becomes a live bird by GOD's leave. I restore vision to the blind, heal the leprous, and I revive the dead by GOD's leave. I can tell you what you eat, and what you store in your homes. This should be a proof for you, if you are believers.

[3:50] "I confirm previous scripture - the Torah - and I revoke certain prohibitions imposed upon you. I come to you with sufficient proof from your Lord. Therefore, you shall observe GOD, and obey me.

[3:51] "GOD is my Lord and your Lord; you shall worship Him alone. This is the right path."

[3:52] When Jesus sensed their disbelief, he said, "Who are my supporters towards GOD?" The disciples said, "We are GOD's supporters; we believe in GOD, and bear witness that we are submitters."

[3:53] "Our Lord, we have believed in what You have sent down, and we have followed the messenger; count us among the witnesses."

The Death of Jesus*
[3:54] They plotted and schemed, but so did GOD, and GOD is the best schemer.

[3:55] Thus, GOD said, "O Jesus, I am terminating your life, raising you to Me, and ridding you of the disbelievers. I will exalt those who follow you above those who disbelieve, till the Day of Resurrection. Then to Me is the ultimate destiny of all of you, then I will judge among you regarding your disputes.

[3:56] "As for those who disbelieve, I will commit them to painful retribution in this world, and in the Hereafter. They will have no helpers."

[3:57] As for those who believe and lead a righteous life, He will fully recompense them. GOD does not love the unjust.

[3:58] These are the revelations that we recite to you, providing a message full of wisdom.

Jews and Christians are People of the Book, and will reap their heavenly reward:

002.062
YUSUFALI: Those who believe (in the Qur'an), and those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Christians and the Sabians,- any who believe in Allah and the Last Day, and work righteousness, shall have their reward with their Lord; on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.

Skyler said...

It's worth pointing out that the caliphate of cordoba was relatively moderate for its day. Until they were invaded and destroyed by two successive fanatical and barbaric Muslim sects, the Almoravids and Almohads.

D.L.McNamara said...

The presentation of Imam Rauf as "moderate" is probably doing as much to harm the image of Islam as the last failed Times Sq. bomber. Prior to Raufs arrival America was fed a fuzzy tale of "moderate" Islam whose practitioners shared the values of most mainstream religions. Now we have Rauf. I doubt most Americans can relate to the view that moving a religious building a few blocks is a matter of national security, nor his desire to incorporate Sharia into US law. Despite organizations like Canadian Muslim Congress speaking out against the mosque, the media has selected Rauf as the designated moderate. Sadly for Muslims Rauf seems to be the Muslim equivalent of Al Sharpton.

E.M. Davis said...

The problem with moderate muslims is that they have been rendered effectively irrelevant by the jihadists in their wake.

I know I'll catch hell re: Godwin's Law, but think about all of those Germans circa 1933 who really never thought about Aryan supremacy nor did they really harbor any hatred for the jews. What happened to them? Where did they go?

Fen said...

The problem with moderate muslims is that they have been rendered effectively irrelevant by the jihadists in their wake

100,000 muslims do not hijack the religion of 1,000,000,000 without their explicit permission.

We can go drinking and whoring tonight, wake up tomorrow and murder 3,000 in the name of Islam, and they'll be dancing in the streets of Islamabad, Beirut, et al.

But burn a holy book and you risk radicalizing all 1 billion of them.

Desecrate the Koran? Death!
Desecrate the Prophet? Death!
Desecrate Islam itself? [yawn]

10 years now waiting on "moderate" Islam to be outraged. But the "moderates" don't consider the hijacking of Islam to be outrageous.

Revenant said...

Luckily for us, Christians are not infidels.

Un-"luckily" for "us", this is not a Christian nation.

Trooper York said...

You have a passion for personable grifters.

First the Big O.

Now the Real Estate Imam.

Maguro said...

Luckily for us, Christians are not infidels....

Very impressive collection of cut-n-pasted Koran suras. You should really change your name to "former islamic studies student".

However. Quotes from scripture are one thing, the practical application of Islam in the year 2010 is something else again.

Fact is, many current practicioners of Islam do in fact view Christians and Jews as infidels. The leadership of Iran, for example. Hezbollah. Hamas. The Taliban. The Saudi government. Many others.

So it's kind of silly for you to post a few suras that you just googled this morning and claim that proves Islam is all about love, respect and tolerance. Even for you, that's a bit facile.

Don't just stare myopically at the Koran when evaluating Islam. Open your eyes and look at its practical effect, particularly in the places where Islam dominates.

jr565 said...

Former Law student wrote:
[3:56] "As for those who disbelieve, I will commit them to painful retribution in this world, and in the Hereafter. They will have no helpers."

[3:57] As for those who believe and lead a righteous life, He will fully recompense them. GOD does not love the unjust.

[3:58] These are the revelations that we recite to you, providing a message full of wisdom.

Jews and Christians are People of the Book, and will reap their heavenly reward:


Your next homework assignment is to look up the concept of abrogation, where Mohammad's later "revelations" overwrite his earlier ones. This ties into his life. Early on, he had no power and had to preach accomodation, later on, when he joined his band of brigands, he had no more use for jews or christians and was hell bent on dominating them. He wasn't exactly a live and let live kind of guy.

Surah 2:106: None of Our revelations do We abrogate or cause to be forgotten, but We substitute something better or similar: Knowest thou not that Allah Hath power over all things?"

virgil xenophon said...

Perhaps THE definitive discussion I've read so far on the "moderate" Islam/Muslim topic is to be found in an article over at PJmedia by David Solway entitled: "Islam, Islamism, and Moderation" @

http:/pajamasmedia.com/blog/islam-islamism-and-moderation/?singlepage=true

Almost Ali said...

One thread echos another:

"I celebrate Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf."

And so, into the cage...

"She wanted to show the polar bear that she felt sorry for it, that she understood and supported efforts to make its habitat safer."

James said...

El Pollo Real said:

"If he fails to convince that Cordoba House is not a victory Mosque, it is his fault."

Ok, look at these following quotes from this thread and tell me what exactly he could do to convince these people?

"Taqiya"

"Imam Ruaf is a Muslim, which is antithetical to moderation. It's time our government publicly admit this fact, and reclassify Islam as a violent political movement bent on our destruction. Absolutely hellbent on our destruction."

"He's a puppet at best and a deliberate liar at worst. He is no more moderate than a jihadist wants martyrdom. This notion of a moderate muslim needs to stop"

"A moderate imam is like an intelligent liberal - impossible.

Nazis and muslims have the same goal - to kill all the Jews in the world. In that regard the are identical"

This man could travel to Afghanistan/Pakistan and kill Osama with his bare hands, and these people would still despise him. Jesus Himself could come down from the Heavens and say "Hey, this guy really is a moderate, good guy," and people like Almost Ali would scream "LIAR!!!!!"

E.M. Davis said:

"The problem with moderate muslims is that they have been rendered effectively irrelevant by the jihadists in their wake."

That is certainly one, and likely the biggest problem. Another is that no matter what, there is nothing an actual moderate Muslim could do to make any of these people actually believe them. Denounce every radical Islamist on the planet? Liar. Preach peace and coexistence, advocate the American way of government? Liar. Join the military specifically to combat these radical Islamists? Not a real Muslim.

Almost Ali said...

Ok, look at these following quotes from this thread and tell me what exactly he could do to convince these people?

Part the Red Sea. Permanently.

(Because your effort deserved an answer)

Fen said...

there is nothing an actual moderate Muslim could do to make any of these people actually believe them

Bullshit. I said "actions not words", ie. ANY frickin action that goes to moderation would be proof enough for me.

But ride your little strawman and pretend thats not what I said. Idiot.

Fen said...

oh, i forgot

FUCK YOU

AST said...

How does calling his project The Cordoba Initiative indicate moderation. His idea of moderation is to treat us dhimmi less harshly than the Taliban would, but his ideal is still to have Islam, not just as the state religion, but as the state itself.

Sixty Grit said...

James, you forget that muslims have joined the army, and have, on more than one occasion, killed other American soldiers. You keep lovin' you some muslims, but guess what, like a freakin' polar bear, they are not going to love you back.

WV: multsos - what a multi-culti will send once they recognize that islam wants them dead.

Skyler said...

Sandpaper, there are certainly good muslims out there that put actions behind their support in the war on radical islam. The Azerbaijanis served along side me in Iraq and they were very nice people. The commander told me that even though they were muslim, they had nothing to do with the crazies they were helping us fight. They put their army up behind those words.

So, they're not all bad. Just the vast majority. Anyone muslim that isn't fighting alongside us in this war is suspect.

Mark said...

Crack won the thread in the third comment.