November 30, 2010

Depriving people who crave attention from getting attention?

DSM-5 eliminates narcissism as an official personality disorder.

The conflict is nowhere near as amusingly ironic as my post title or the headline at the link suggests.

36 comments:

Martin L. Shoemaker said...

We no longer treat narcissists. We elect them President instead.

Roux said...

Dammit Martin, you beat me to it.....

I was going to suggest....

Obama no longer considered mentally ill.

edutcher said...

Interesting idea. They're going to gobbledygook a lot of mental illness out of existence.

And improve everyone's self-esteem.

This should work as well as the last 40 years of public school education.

Larry J said...

Jonathan Shedler, a psychologist at the University of Colorado Medical School, said: “Clinicians are accustomed to thinking in terms of syndromes, not deconstructed trait ratings. Researchers think in terms of variables, and there’s just a huge schism.” He said the committee was stacked “with a lot of academic researchers who really don’t do a lot of clinical work. We’re seeing yet another manifestation of what’s called in psychology the science-practice schism.”

It sounds like the psychology academics are as bad as those at university education departments. They keep coming up with theories without regard for how they'll play out in practice or benefit students. Chalk it up to "publish or perish."

Lem said...

"I'm not going to be ignored" has been found in 1 phrases from 1 movies and series.

Hey Rush is back mentioning Althouse again..

Lem said...

Rush is reading from the blog..

ricpic said...

The Times example of narcissism is strange: a high school baseball player who sees himself as a potential big league star as opposed to a high school baseball player who is hoping for a college baseball scholarship.

I don't think either is a narcissist. One may be over-estimating his ability but at least his dreams are based on some concrete ability/accomplishment.

A narcissist's self-evaluation is completely divorced from any achievement or lack thereof. Narcissism is self-love (which is healthy) balooned to monstrous proportions and completely unrelated to any real world accomplishments.

HDHouse said...

He was talking about narcissism but I was engrossed in looking at my hair in the review mirror and missed most of it.

Triangle Man said...

Interesting idea. They're going to gobbledygook a lot of mental illness out of existence.

So you're not one of the complainers who complain that according to the DSM everything is a mental illness?

Coketown said...

First they remove homosexuality, now this. At this rate, the DSM-24 is going to be a pamphlet, with only nostalgia and paranoia recognized as mental disorders.

HDHouse said...

We could criminalize it in some cases...

.....Let's play I've got a secret.......

nonapod said...

Speaking as a narcissist myself, I'm offended! They clearly can't comprehend how awesome I am, or (more likely) they're simply intimidated by my kind.

Freeman Hunt said...

What does TMink think?

traditionalguy said...

Narcissitic personalities are no joking matter. They are the most dangerous humans alive. They can project a charming self that only has valuable traits to the point of perfection, but only do so to gain total control over people ceded to them. Anyone who rejects that trick is written off as a non-person. You could call these folks confidence men, but they literally destroy those under their control just to prove to themselves how brilliant they are. BEWARE of those personalities.

Bob said...

Hahaha. Clearly this change was made under pressure from the White House.

Lucien said...

Sounds like narcissists will still get an Axis II diagnosis, but it will be called something else.

They'll still be dangerous, too.

(And we can still say "Scratch a paranoid & you'll find a narcissist).

Cheers

rhhardin said...

You want to pair narcissists with narcosists, who just doze on the couch.

The Crack Emcee said...

It's so common it's pointless to label it.

Tg said:

Narcissitic personalities are no joking matter. They are the most dangerous humans alive. They can project a charming self that only has valuable traits to the point of perfection, but only do so to gain total control over people ceded to them. Anyone who rejects that trick is written off as a non-person. You could call these folks confidence men, but they literally destroy those under their control just to prove to themselves how brilliant they are. BEWARE of those personalities.

I will remind you of what happened to my ex's face when she was found out - this shit is deep.

Like the invention of no-fault divorce, this is a cop-out.

John Burgess said...

I guess narcissistic personalities are now so wide-spread it's not a disorder. I see enough evidence daily to support this conclusion.

After all, isn't the DSM a descriptive exercise, rather than prescriptive?

Jim said...

It's been mentioned already, but the article's description of Narcissistic Personality Disorder couldn't fit our current president any better than if they had measured his inseam and asked to which side he dresses.

Jim said...

After all, isn't the DSM a descriptive exercise, rather than prescriptive

The larger scale problem isn't really what you call it, it's that in order to get insurance (even Medicare/Medicaid) to cover mental health treatment you have to give them a diagnosis. You have to be able to point to the specific disorder in the DSM and say "THIS is why s/he needs treatment."

Removing disorders from the DSM isn't just an academic exercise. It has profound impacts on who can get treated, how they can be treated, how long they can be treated for, and what kind of treatment is considered "best practice."

TMink said...

Thanks for thinking of me in association with narcissism Freeman!!!!

I joke. 8)

The DSM is a committee that pays little attention to researchers or clinicians. They are bureaucrats with all the power issues and petty jealousies that are part of homeowner associations.

So I am not surprised.

But narcissistic personality disorder exists and to deny it is just more lunacy from the psychological elites.

I cannot in good conscience join the American Psychological Association. Dr. Helen has brought up some of the difficulties with the field at her blog.

But I rarely trust psychologists as they tend to be too removed from reality.

And this just caps it.

Trey

TMink said...

I think a male borderling personality disordered person is on average more dangerous than either an anti-social or a narcissist. The anti-social does not want to get caught and the narcissist can rationalize that their critic is too stupid to appreciate their greatness. (Sound familiar?)

Borderlines just react and the guys react like guys in big and impactful ways.

Trey

traditionalguy said...

Crack is right as usual. The tendency to see our own interests and try to get what we can from others in business is normal. A toxic narcissist is missing any other redeeming relationship skills. When he/she does not get everybody fooled by that act, he/she will go on the attack mercilessly against those to whom they owe the most. They in effect are always in character role playing a play that they must win and you must lose, or you will be of no value and be treated as a slandered non-person.

yashu said...

So what are the other 4 personality disorders that were removed? Frustratingly, the article doesn't bother to say what they are. Does anyone know?

Clyde said...

Obama: Now sane!

D'ya think he could have exercised his line-item veto in the DSM=5?

former law student said...

Somewhere on her yacht, Carly Fiorina is breathing a sigh of relief.

deborah said...

Yashu, yeah, what gives with not mentioning the other four? I will wager they are avoidant, borderline, dependent, and histrionic, because basically those types are royal pains in the ass, but not a danger to society, per se.

Blair said...

This is kind of a strange decision, given that NPD obviously exists. However, it is almost impossible to treat, since the Narcissist will always refuse to admit he (or she) has a problem, and even if forced into therapy will simply attempt to manipulate the therapist. So in practical terms, it's almost pointless to have it there.

I don't think Obama has NPD, by the way - it's almost impossible to hold a marriage together with it, and he seems fairly happily married.

TMink said...

Short answer. I have a patient waiting.

"Instead of the old ten personality types, DSM-V has simplified the system by cutting them down to just five: Antisocial/Psychopathic, Avoidant, Borderline, Obsessive-Compulsive, and Schizotypal types."

I think those do have a lot of utility, but so did passive aggressive and that one met the pc chopping block a while ago.

Trey

deborah said...

From what I've read, passive aggression was first diagnosed in soldiers during WWII, and it basically boiled down to self-preservation. They were attempting to avoid death through malingering, etc.

I consider it a coping mechanism. Yes, your sister may be frequently late for engagements, but since she can't stand some of the family dynamic, this is the 'permissable' way to show aggression, so it works out as a defense mechanism.

former law student said...

[passive aggressiveness] basically boiled down to self-preservation.

Self-preservation doesn't explain why a p-a Volvo driver goes 5mph under the limit in the left lane until you move to the right, and he speeds up to match you (I usually bow out at 85).

If that's not passive-aggressiveness, what is it?

deborah said...

fls, in the psychiatry biz, I think it's known as being an asshole.

traditionalguy said...

My guess is that the Psychiatric Profession does not want to be around any more Toxic Narcissists. That is a wise choice by them.

ndspinelli said...

If you pair a narcissist and a narcosist you have Pablo Escobar. All sociopaths are narcissists. However, it is not a tautology

deborah said...

Not to be confused with Pepe Escobar.