March 28, 2011

"Two sources with knowledge of internal GOP polling tell us that Prosser and Kloppenburg are near even, a bad sign for the incumbent."

Writes Robert Costa in the National Review:
“She has driven his negatives up,” one source says. “It will be hard to drive hers up. Her lack of judicial experience should hurt her, but it also makes her harder to pin down. The question now is: Does the Right have enough resources to counter the Greater Wisconsin Committee’s millions? And even if they do, is it too late? It is going to be touch-and-go for these last few days.”...

According to state-election figures, nonpartisan spring elections usually draw less than 20 percent of the electorate: 18 percent in 2009, 19 percent in 2008, 19 percent in 2007, and 12 percent in 2006. To win, GOP officials say Prosser will need to draw strong numbers from emerging conservative pockets in Waukesha, Washington, Ozaukee, and Racine counties. If voters from these areas don’t show, but liberals pile into voting booths in Dane County and Madison proper, Kloppenburg could cruise to victory.

“Look, this race is not a referendum on the governor or a specific piece of legislation,” Brian Nemoir says. “It has a much broader scope. supreme-court judges are elected to ten-year terms on purpose. Their elections are not intended to be snapshot responses to the current political environment.”
But if the election depends mostly on turnout, portraying it as a referendum on the governor is probably a better strategy than the usual grim focus on judicial aptitude and temperament. Who can be moved to go out and vote next Tuesday when it's just about a judgeship?

I hate these stranded elections. You have more power than usual, if you vote, because so few vote. That might be some motivation to vote, but... obviously not. That's the whole point: Few vote. Who are those few? The super-heated political types. So... how does that work for a judicial election? You can see that this stranded April 5th voting day presents a special problem with respect to keeping judicial elections above politics. Judicial elections above politics... it makes even less sense than usual.

Prosser has criticized the very negative ads that Kloppenburg supporters have put up, but if his supporters don't come on strong in retaliation, he's going to lose.

139 comments:

vbspurs said...

You have more power than usual, if you vote, because so few vote.

Brazil, Belgium and other countries have mandatory voting.

In countries where national identity cards control your daily life, the state refuses to issue you ID cards, passports and the like unless you have proven that you have voted in the previous election.

I find it oppressive. Pure equality sometimes is.

Cheers,
Victoria

Fred4Pres said...

Take control of the courts and you don't have to worry about the voters.

Scott M said...

“Look, this race is not a referendum on the governor or a specific piece of legislation,”

...always says the party unsure of it's footing and/or subsequent electoral fortunes. We got bellyfulls of it in 2006 and 2008, again with Scott Brown and then again in the 2010 general.

It should be avoided completely as a statement and parried as meaningless political baiting when it's a question.

Alex said...

That's the whole point: Few vote. Who are those few? The super-heated political types.

Ask yourself why most people feel politics has no relevance to their lives when you know it does. I think we should have mandatory voting like some European countries. But before you get a voter card, you have to pass a civics test to prove you know what the fuck your voting for or against.

themightypuck said...

Not voting is voting.

Maguro said...

Does this news force the Republicans to preemptively re-vote this thing? Or can they wait until the election and just do their re-vote if Kloppenburg wins?

elliot said...

I'll be voting for Justice Prosser, but the unions are going to bury him.

The question then becomes how nakedly-partisian will the liberal majority on the court be wiling to appear when they invalidate things like concealed carry and restrictions on public union bargaining.

Scott M said...

Not voting is voting.

Not always.

Carol_Herman said...

You can buy polls to publish. Actually I'm more worried about "ballot stuffing," and gimmickry that changes voting outcomes in "close races."

Like Hugh Hewitt wrote back in 2004, Americans have to vote in large enough numbers to overcome the THEFTS of republican votes.

Yeah. I know. This isn't a race between a republican and a democrap. Just what you can do when you own the megaphone of the media.

Expect worse ahead. If the outcome is not good for Wisconsin, here, wait till we head into 2012.

You don't need side issues that lose voters. Just stay focused on the stinking economy. And, what's happened to jobs. And, how the Tea Party sprang forward on unwanted bailouts, before Obamacare came down the pike, even.

I know. It's like talking to the wall.

damikesc said...

Public unions.
Judicial elections.

WI is a haven for bad ideas.

Lincolntf said...

I think it would be great if the fleebaggers were forced by the Unions to run away again after the Court business is settled. The 83-year old, the pregnant lady, all of them. If they're so committed to their cause, let them rot in Illinois for a few months.

Lem said...

If by electing Kloppenburg, a minority (12-15%) of the voters of Wisconsin can undo gov Walker's plans then so be it.

Not paying attention is not an excuse.

Let them be taxed to the max.. every year for ever and ever.

EDH said...

Even if she gets in I think the court will have a hard time voting to overturn the law on procedural grounds.

Then she'll become the face of evil.

TosaGuy said...

National articles usually leave out some local facts.

Milwaukee County is having a sharp contest that day to fill Scott Walker's county exec seat. The lefty is a trust fund baby who doesn't pay state income taxes. He really doesn't rally traditional Dem voting blocks, such as blue collar and minorities, in the county. I also have not seen Milwaukee's minority communities all that concerned about the benefits of unionized white people. My guess is that they will stay home.

The counties surrounding Milwaukee County are the most active in GOP/conservative politics in the state.

AJ Lynch said...

As a cynical SOB, I believe these "stranded elections" are what the power brokers prefer.

Here in PA, they like to run the ginormous bond issues in the odd year primaries when maybe only 12% or so of registered voters actually cast a vote.

The Grand Inquisitor said...

Wisconsin has a rare chance to take a clear stand on the entire direction of their political and legal system.

It's on them to decide, but it's also on the rest of us to make clear we will not bail out these states who are headed to insolvency.

If Wisconsin wants to be corrupt and enslave their kids in unnatural gifts to the present voters, let all the good folks move to Texas.

David said...

The timing is pretty much perfect for Kloppenburg.

Plus her supporters have viciousness on their side.

As Mr. Dooley said, politics ain't beanbag.

I don't think Prosser gets that.

Alex said...

If the unions can swing these elections their way, then the people of WI deserve every ill wind that blows their way.

Alex said...

So 50% voted in November but only 12% will vote in this important election? Let's wait and see what happens, I'd be shocked if there wasn't a high turnout for this. This is not a regular judicial election, it's a referendum on Scott Walker.

Alex said...

Plus her supporters have viciousness on their side.

Please explain how that works to swing votes over to the (D) side. I would think such naked viciousness would work against them.

David said...

There will be plenty of elections before the whole problem of government overspending gets worked out. It's not a sexy issue, the press can't or won't deal with it effectively and the worst consequences have not hit yet. I expect ebb and flow before our politicians come to grips with the reality, but they will have to at some point. The problem will not fix itself.

David said...

Alex--Negative ads work. Sad but true.

David said...

I expect considerably more than 12% to vote. The Kloppenburgs are motivated and organized. The Prossers not so much. That's not going to change in a week.

reader_iam said...

Look, this race is not a referendum

Whether a race is, or is not, a referendum--or even if it should be--is pretty much irrelevant given that in the end, the VOTING will be about **whatever** the voters--those who turn out AND those who do not, to be sure--decide it's about.

If the voters decide it's about a referendum, then that is what the election will have been about. Nothing else, in the end, obtains.

Emil Blatz said...

Prosser may get it - but both he and Kloppenberg accepted public financing for this campaign. So the critical entities that have to "get it" are those that make independent expenditures on behalf of Prosser, or just generically against Kloppenberg. And it looks to me like they are waiting a bit too long. The Dane County turnout will be huge. So Milwaukee minority voters better be asleep.

Alex said...

I see Dem turnout as very high because this is about their livelihood. They can't allow the taxpayer teat to be taken away.

Alex said...

David -

Alex--Negative ads work. Sad but true.

What are the negative ads aside from the "Prosser let the child rapist go"?

garage mahal said...

Does this news force the Republicans to preemptively re-vote this thing? Or can they wait until the election and just do their re-vote if Kloppenburg wins?

Makes you wonder why they didn't re-vote this already. Instead of trying to end around the courts. There must be a reason....?

reader_iam said...

Would we be better served by having not fewer elections, but more consolidated election days? I go back and forth on this one, and though the jury is still out (you'll pardon the terrible pun) for me, I'm leaning toward more consolidated election days. The orphans seem all too likely to get treated as orphans often do.

Alex said...

garage - even if you win this election, recall all the GOPers and Walker in 2012, it won't change the economic realities. The next (D) governor is going to end up busting the unions anyways. You've simply delayed the inevitable by 24 months.

vbspurs said...

Would we be better served by having not fewer elections, but more consolidated election days?

Explain, please?

In Switzerland, they have endless referenda on any and everything. It's quite fatiguing.

Hagar said...

Albuquerque has off-year "non-partisan" municipal elections. The system was set up so that the university crowd could dominate city politics, and it has worked like a charm for 40 years.

Alex said...

reader - really why does it matter? I always vote, whether it's a general or special election. Is it that hard to fill out an absentee ballot? Are people that lazy that they would forfeit their economic future so they could spend 30 mins more watching some stupid reality TV show?

DaveW said...

The left appears to be very highly motivated up there. If the right isn't similarly motivated, well they'll lose.

If they can't reign in public employee compensation after winning an election like they did then it's going to be hopeless in the states that are already captive.

It won't happen here in Texas so we'll be watching it like a train wreck. That won't make it fun to watch though.

Alex said...

Victoria - Swizterland seems like a nice place to live. I'd put up with all that endless voting as the price of vigilance against encroaching tyranny. Remember North Korea has no votes period.

reader_iam said...

OTOH, when they're just one section on a very long ballot, maybe the judicial slots get short-shrift. Maybe it's good to have them split out so that those who do care can focus and those who don't...well, if they don't care enough, whose fault and problem is that?

As I said, I go back and forth on this one.

(Where I live, to be clear, we don't directly elect judges. However, nor are they simply appointed and that's that: We do vote on whether or not to retain them.)

Revenant said...

I expect Prosser to lose simply because of the overall low turnout. The union types are good at getting out the vote.

Bad for Wisconsin, but that's how it goes.

shiloh said...

When you find yourself in the majority, it time to pause and reflect! ~ Mark Twain

Did I mention voters can be quite finicky. ;)

When Ford was appointed president after Agnew resigned in disgrace! a special election was held to replace Ford in MI's conservative Grand Rapid's district. A Democrat won. So you could say not only was Ford not elected vp or president, but congressional voters back home rejected him as well lol.

Again, all fame is fleeting, especially in politics.

vbspurs said...

RIA wrote:

(Where I live, to be clear, we don't directly elect judges [...]

In Miami-Dade Co., we do. But we don't elect local sheriffs. I am a bit hazy why certain US cities do, and others don't (that is to say, the historical reasons), but I just chalk it up to Americans being the most individualistic people on the people.

If you doubt that, just ask which other country allows each of their States or provinces such a wealth of license plate choices.

MadisonMan said...

And the unruly parade of lefty activists and hulking Teamsters that occupied the state capitol for weeks is back for a bruising final round.

Oh brother. Hyperbole much?

vbspurs said...

-on the people +on earth.

shiloh said...

When Ford was appointed vp ...

carry on

reader_iam said...

Victoria:

Sorry for my unclear verbal shorthand. What I mean to say is that while I'm not advocating that the people have less say via voting for representatives at various levels or on certain ballot initiatives, I'm leaning toward preferring there be fewer election DAYS. That's what I meant by consolidation. There are election days at least twice a year and in some years three times (this does include primaries at the state and local levels; caucuses for national offer are additional and separate). This is because local election dates are staggered from state and federal election dates and years. To add more broth to the soup, school-related elections are yet other days.

I think maybe voters just get fatigued, or can't keep track, or whatever. I do manage to make them all, but sometimes I wish they could...


...be a bit more consolidated?

: )

NotYourTypicalNewYorker said...

"Let them be taxed to the max.. every year for ever and ever."

Agree, I now feel the same for Wisconsin as I do for New York. Enough of the political tit for tat, you said, I said....

Bring on the collapse, show the voters up close and personal where we are and what needs to be done going forward.

These unions want to maintain the status quo, it can't be done, let's get on with it. Cripes!

The Grand Inquisitor said...

What's sad is that it's pretty clear it's Prosser's judicial temperament that is keeping him from fighting fire with fire.

The kind of judicial candidate who could respond effectively in Wisconsin politics to the crap he's been attacked with (such as the civil rights for child molester defendants ad) would be an unsuitable judge.

Wisconsin has to decide if it wants a real judge or a politician in a judge's seat.

I know a few Californians who moved to Texas and while the stereotype is that they are importing liberalism, my experience is that they want common sense lower regulation, and a government that is limited and effective.

People who are sick of Wisconsin should give up on Wisconsin and let the liberals have their enclaves. We just need to make sure that the federal government doesn't yet again rob the red states to pay the blue ones (I realize the shills tell you it's the other way around, but that's crap).

Sloanasaurus said...

If Kloppenburg wins, she will be the Unions' Supreme Court Justice - bought and paid for by them. That is an unfortunate thing to be - a judge with no apparent credibility.

Being a judge is prestigious. But, how much prestige can you have when it is obvious you won because a bunch of unions ran negative ads against your opponent all because of their opposition to anti-union legislation being passed by the legislature.

garage mahal said...

These unions want to maintain the status quo, it can't be done, let's get on with it. Cripes!

Walker's budget increases spending:

A report released Monday by the non-partisan Legislative Fiscal Bureau showed the state would spend a proposed $64.1 billion in state and federal dollars over two years after including amounts that are being transferred to quasi-public authorities like the University of Wisconsin-Madison. That would amount to $609.5 million more over the 2011-'13 budget. Link

So after all these proposed cuts, we're going to increase spending?

NotYourTypicalNewYorker said...

"It's on them to decide, but it's also on the rest of us to make clear we will not bail out these states who are headed to insolvency."

The blue cities and states are banking on the Fed to bail them out.

This mindset is poisonous.

Portugal right now is refusing to implement austerity measures and is waiting for the EU to bail them out ala Greece and Ireland.

vbspurs said...

RIA, as ever, thanks for the explanation.

But my question then is, how would you consolidate them? Wouldn't that require an election to determine if voters want to consolidate election dates? :-*)

We have many many elections in SoFla -- I am always voting on something. Plus, when one actually goes into the booth, it's not just candidates' names that stare back, but Amendments and referenda galore.

Usually I pride myself on voting for even the most unheraladed of elections. But I missed the infamous recall of our Miami-Dade Mayor due to...posting on Althouse that day.

Can't beat that.

shiloh said...

(I realize the shills tell you it's the other way around, but that's crap).

Citations please to back up your opinion.

Crimso said...

"If you doubt that, just ask which other country allows each of their States or provinces such a wealth of license plate choices."

I actually find the number of choices to be somewhat restricted. In my state, you can get license plates with certain universities featured on them. I've not checked, but I'm betting that my alma mater isn't a choice (I've never seen it). They should let you get plates promoting your favorite blogs.

MadisonMan said...

The althouse blog Wisconsin Vanity plate.

That would be awesome!

vbspurs said...

Crimso wrote:

I've not checked, but I'm betting that my alma mater isn't a choice (I've never seen it).

I bet you anything, if it's large enough, that they have one! Check it out, Crimso.

I used to have an U of Miami plate (now I have a Miami Heat plate...).

They should let you get plates promoting your favorite blogs.

Eek. Imagine the traffic accidents when everyone is gunning to rear-end the Daily Kos driver.

reader_iam said...

Victoria:

Honestly, I don't know the answer as to how they could be consolidated. I've never looked into by what mechanism (voting, legislation, election board, whatever) the calendar was/is set up in the state in which I currently reside, or the history behind its system.

Pogo said...

Truth is, liberals have killed nearly every city they've controlled in the last 100 years.
Detroit.
St. Louis.
Chicago.
Cleveland, Cincinnati, Toledo, Pittsburgh, Milwaukee, and Buffalo.

Now they're going to kill some of the states, too.
Illinois.
Ohio.
California.

Quite a record.
Wisconsin seems destined to join them, as the unions seem to own the place.

No doubt Minnesota is on their to-do list of places to kneecap.

Sloanasaurus said...

garage - even if you win this election, recall all the GOPers and Walker in 2012, it won't change the economic realities. The next (D) governor is going to end up busting the unions anyways. You've simply delayed the inevitable by 24 months.

But it may change how the state deals with the economic realities. You are not taking into account that Liberals do not believe that taxing business etc... will cause rich people and business to leave the state. If the Dems win back the state, they will raise taxes to cover the shortfall. This will hasten the economic decline of the state.

You need to ask, why would anyone start a business in wisconsin, except to take advantage of the land or natural resources. If you want to manufacture something, why would you ever build it in Wisconsin? Why not build it in Texas or Florida, or North Carolina or Georgia.

shiloh said...

Pogo congrats on your hyperbolic generalizations as AA should be so proud!

reader_iam said...

Victoria:

We do elect sheriffs.

The U.S. is one big, diverse country, innit?

Scott M said...

I don't necessarily disagree that blue social justice has resulted in some fairly hellish inner-cities, but I'm not sure St Louis belongs on the same list as Detroit. Unless you're counting the murder rate.

Aside from that, which is bad enough on it's lonesome, I'd admit, we finally got a handle on urban blight, abandoned buildings, and every other wonderful thing that goes along with crappy city dwelling, about ten years ago when we started letting the private developers come in and try some for-profit fixes. The downtown area has turned around completely. North St Louis, which is the real area of concern in this context, is slowly but surely giving hellish ground, block by block.

shiloh said...

From Prosser to urban renewal ...

traditionalguy said...

Voters get the government that they deserve.

vbspurs said...

The U.S. is one big, diverse country, innit?

This is where I get to genuflect and say, "Best damn country in the world".

Incidentally, cool link: License Plates of the World.

James said...

Its amusing to read these overwrought analyses. Conservatives in the seven South-east Wisconsin counties - Kenosha, Racine, Waukesha, the Milwaukee suburbs, Washington, etc. - will turn out. Its "up north" that they need to be worried about turnout.

AJ Lynch said...

I guess Wisconsin could change its state motto to "Michigan Here We Come".

James said...

I expect considerably more than 12% to vote. The Kloppenburgs are motivated and organized. The Prossers not so much. That's not going to change in a week.

I don't agree. Prosser got more votes in the primary than the three liberal candidates combined. So even if the Dems manage to increase their turnout so will those who will vote for Prosser. The increase will turn out to be a wash. A close election but Prosser wins.

rhhardin said...

Voting is very important but it's not important that you vote.

My mathematics example.

You disagree with your neighbor.

You both vote, and cancel each other out. It's 1-1 for the proposition in question.

Now consider what happens if you persuade him to vote your way instead of voting yourself. Then it's 1-0 for the proposition you favor

Persuading is more effective than voting!

Now think what happens if you persuade a hundred people, or a thousand, or a hundred thousand.

You are, in fact, wasting your time voting: the chances that your vote ever decides anything that you care about are zero; but you're not wasting your time persuading.

Coketown said...

Are there any Jitterbug the Vote campaigns to get old people into the voting booths? Every election hinges on whether the emboldened voting interest is strong enough to not be neutralized by senior citizens.

MadisonMan said...

I don't agree. Prosser got more votes in the primary than the three liberal candidates combined.

James, a couple of newsworthy things that might influence turnout have occurred since the Primary.

Pogo said...

@shiloh said...
"hyperbolic generalizations"

Just check out the census for those cities I named.

Detroit’s population declined by 25% in just ten years, from 2000 to 2010, down to the lowest level since 1910.

10 Cities with the highest poverty rates:
1. Detroit, MI (Hasn’t elected a Republican mayor since 1961)
2. Buffalo, NY (Hasn’t elected a Republican mayor since 1954)
3. Cincinnati, OH (Hasn’t elected a Republican mayor since 1984)
4. Cleveland, OH (Hasn’t elected a Republican mayor since 1989)
5. Miami, FL (Has never had a Republican Mayor)
6. St. Louis, MO (Hasn’t elected a Republican mayor since 1949)
7. El Paso, TX (Has never had a Republican Mayor)
8. Milwaukee, WI (Hasn’t elected a Republican mayor since 1908)
9. Philadelphia, PA (Hasn’t elected a Republican mayor since 1952)
10. Newark, NJ (Hasn’t elected a Republican mayor since 1907)

James said...

James, a couple of newsworthy things that might influence turnout have occurred since the Primary.

Such as? When the primaries occurred in February the Budget Repair bill was already being discussed publicly along with the possibility that it would be decided in the courts. What else has changed that would dissuade people who voted for Prosser in the primary from supporting him in this election?

AJ Lynch said...

Pogo:

But surely that is just a coincidink!

James said...

Lets look at the numbers from the Government Accountability Board

Prosser - 231,017
Kloppenburg - 105,002
Winnig - 37,831
Stephens - 45,256
Other - 1,004

Prosser had 41,924 more votes than the other candidates combined. That 10 percent margin will be a huge gap to overcome regardless of how fired up the opposition is. You can bet that Prosser supporters are equally enthused.

Alex said...

How can Prosser lose? For sure if he loses, garage will be breaking out the bubly. Ooops - he's broke so maybe some apple juice! LOL!!!!

Maguro said...

So let's say Kloppenburg is elected and the BRB is overturned. What then?

They would then need to pass another budget bill, no? Does the whole thing just start over again from the beginning?

Pogo said...

The destruction of cities by liberals:

Since 1950, the populations of Cleveland and St. Louis, have declined by more than 50%.

The Youngstown, Ohio population is less than half what it was when the steel industry collapsed in the 1970s.

Albany:
1950 Population: 134,995
2010: 97,856
Decline of 27%

Boston:
1950 Population: 801,444
2010: 617,594
Decline of 23%

Buffalo:
1950 Population: 580,132
2010: 261,310
Decline of 55%

Newark:
1930 Population: 442,337
2010: 277,140
Decline of 37%

St. Louis:
1950 Population: 856,796
2010: 319,294
Decline of 63%

AST said...

"Who can be moved to go out and vote next Tuesday when it's just about a judgeship?" All the union members. As unseemly as it is for a person to run for a judgeship with promises to rule a certain way on a certain case, what about these demonstrations would give anybody the impression that Walker's opponents would be bothered by such scruples?

Alex said...

So let's say Kloppenburg is elected and the BRB is overturned. What then?

The fleebaggers then confidently filibuster/flee the rest of the session to Nov 2012, knowing the fucking MORONS of Wisconsin will put them back in power.

rmblam said...

"Take control of the courts and you don't have to worry about the voters."

We will hardly be ruled by the tyranny of a few black robes. Which makes me think of Thomas Jefferson.


"God forbid we should ever be twenty years without such a rebellion.
The people cannot be all, and always, well informed. The part which is
wrong will be discontented, in proportion to the importance of the facts
they misconceive. If they remain quiet under such misconceptions,
it is lethargy, the forerunner of death to the public liberty. ...
And what country can preserve its liberties, if its rulers are not
warned from time to time, that this people preserve the spirit of
resistance? Let them take arms. The remedy is to set them right as
to the facts, pardon and pacify them. What signify a few lives lost
in a century or two? The tree of liberty must be refreshed from
time to time, with the blood of patriots and tyrants.
It is its natural manure."

AJ Lynch said...

Pogo:
If the Dem mayors had even a pea-sized brain, they would bulldoze some of the now vacated neighborhoods in these cities and create parks or sell to developers.

chickelit said...

@Pogo: Let me put words in Shiloh's mouth: evil republicans destroyed those cites by making suburbs more attractive. They did this so that we'd use more crude oil in order to start more wars to line the pockets of Haliburton and the evil oil companies.

AST said...

The tea parties had better be organized and out campaigning or their accomplishments of the past few years will be overwhelmed by the union backlash and forgotten.

wv: bipollyz

AJ Lynch said...

The WI voters have a choice to become the next Illinois, which is close to bankrupt, or the next New Jersey, which is trying to fix its finances.

EDH said...

garage mahal said...
Makes you wonder why they didn't re-vote this already. Instead of trying to end around the courts. There must be a reason....?

1.) Maybe so the Dems will waste their resources in the interim on a judicial election?

2.) Or the Rep legiuslature will be able to visibly reassert the "voice of the people" if a "politicalized" court reverses the legislature.

I'm starting to think a court reversal on procedural grounds could be good for Walker over the long haul.
----------

garage mahal said...
So after all these proposed cuts, we're going to increase spending?

Maybe because, contrary to the rhetoric, Walker isn't extreme, he hasn't eliminated collective bargaining on wages, and it would be a lot worse if he didn't do what he proposes.

chickelit said...

@pogo: The evidence for Shiloh's pre-empted assertion is self-evident by comparing European and American cities, with European cites of course being the desired model.

Pogo said...

Other liberal successes:
Minneapolis:
1950 population (peak): 521,718
2010: 382,578
Decline of 27%

St. Paul
1950 population: 311,349
2010: 285,068
Decline of 8%

Cleveland, OH
1950 population: 914,808
2010: 396,815
Decline of 57%

Joe said...

Bottom line for me is that Wisconsin can do whatever they want, but don't come to me (through the federal government) for a handout if things go rotten.

chickelit said...

@garage mahal: Actually, watching Wisconsin slide under the collective fiscal control & influence of the public sector unions from my vantage point is win-win: Out here in public service paradise we have pioneered your future. I know your state's past and future! You grant me predictive powers beyond your wildest imagination! Thank you garage!

Pogo said...

Milwaukee, WI.
1950 population: 637,392
2010: 594,833
Decline of 6.7%.

It fell 1% in the last 10 years, which shows "remarkable stability", Mayor Tom Barrett recently said.

Actually, in comparison to other liberal city losers, that's true.

But in 1950 it was the 13th largest city in the US. Now it's 28th.

"It's the liberal water that makes us shed people; so slimming!".

Original Mike said...

"I'll be voting for Justice Prosser, but the unions are going to bury him."

Yeah, Walker may have over reached , after all. IMO, losing the court is a lot bigger deal than Union decertification (or whatever you want to call it).

"Hard to see, the future is."

Alex said...

Yeah, Walker may have over reached

OTOH according to game theory everything is proceeding according to design.

Mr. D said...

What I don't understand is why, if Prosser got 55% of the vote in the primary, that wasn't the end of it. Why should Kloppenburg get another bite of the apple?

That's an amazingly dumb law. In other states, if someone wins an absolute majority in the primary, there's no runoff.

Pogo said...

"Yeah, Walker may have over reached"

And like in the cities I wrote about above, the unions will win the battle and lose the war.

The unions will still go away, but now because no one will be left to pay the taxes.

"When investigating the death of American cities, remember to look for the Union label!"

Alex said...

If Walker didn't go for the union busting, what would have been the point of his election? Be an ineffective RINO? We've had enough of that with Ah-nold.

Alex said...

Mr. D - because it gives the unions a few more weeks to strategize a way to beat Prosser and install their lackey.

chickelit said...

We've had enough of that with Ah-nold.

And Ah-nold was followed by Brown.

Say, does anybody think Soglin would ever run for Governor?

lawyapalooza said...

Additionally--ouch-- there's the teeny, tiny matter of the report released today from the non-partisan Legislative Reference Bureau showing that when you include Walker's mandatory payments to private agencies (created by his bill), Walker's bill INCREASES spending. Ooops! Didn't think that would get out.

Walker told Wisconsin that his budget cut spedning 6%. He deliberately left out the spending to the new private agencies hecreated. That adds $609,000,000 to spending, NOT a 6% cut. Caught in another lie.

But go ahead. Defend him and tell me I'm wrong. You all know so much more about this than people in WI.

Original Mike said...

"If Walker didn't go for the union busting, what would have been the point of his election?"

He could have waited 6 months. A smarter man would have.

lawyapalooza said...

"Makes you wonder why they didn't re-vote this already. Instead of trying to end around the courts. There must be a reason....?"


If you listened to Fitzgerald, he has already hinted that the reason to not simply vote properly is that they have lost the republican votes. Several repubs have already come out publicly against provisions in the bill they were about to sign without reading.

I seriously doubt they would have risked the supreme court as a atctical move. They screwed up, and could really pay for it April 5.

Original Mike said...

"Makes you wonder why they didn't re-vote this already. Instead of trying to end around the courts. There must be a reason....?"

Taking points off the board is always a tough call.

Sloanasaurus said...

Other liberal successes:
Minneapolis:
1950 population (peak): 521,718
2010: 382,578
Decline of 27%

St. Paul
1950 population: 311,349
2010: 285,068
Decline of 8%


Part of this, however, has been related to the success of suburbs avoiding annexation by Mpls or St. Paul. Consequently, the growth in the Minneapolis suburbs (run by more politically mixed leadership) has been huge over the last 50 years. This growth has offset the declines in Mpls and St. Paul.

The big visable difference between a Detroit and a Minnesapolis is that you don't have near the amount of abandonded infrastructure in Minneapolis. There is some, but not near what Detroit is like.

garage mahal said...

@chickelit
Can't speak for Cali, but collective bargaining has worked well for Wisconsin. 70% of public workers work for the local goverment here. It's probably why there has been so much pushback - public workers are woven into the state pretty tightly.

The deep education cuts are the next big fight. There is a long tradition of smaller schools all over here in WI taking their wrestling teams, swimming, basketball, etc to the state tournaments. (I grew up in a town of 7000). It's pretty exciting for these small schools to do so. Public hearings are scheduled soon, and when the word comes out many of these schools will have to drop programs, or shutter completely, I don't think it's going to go over well. Especially when they find out Walker's budget increases spending, overall.

Original Mike said...

Hey garage - What's the difference between the Minnesota Vikings and a used car?

garage mahal said...

A used car has never won a Superbowl?

chickelit said...

Those smaller communties should levy taxes for their schools and school personel. The worst thing they could do is send everything through Madison like CA sends through Sacramento. It's a guaranteed failure. It's cruel but it's old school and Wisconsin tradition.

Original Mike said...

Half-credit.

The car has a title.

garage mahal said...

Haha. Good one.

wv - final

chickelit said...

Can't speak for Cali, but collective bargaining has worked well for Wisconsin.

Go ahead, ignore the warnings. I wish you and yours well. I have relatives stark raving mad over the whole Walker thing (state employees).

I'll say to you what I say to her: "Just don't say I didn't warn you -- I have a very long memory."

James said...

If you listened to Fitzgerald, he has already hinted that the reason to not simply vote properly is that they have lost the republican votes. Several repubs have already come out publicly against provisions in the bill they were about to sign without reading.

I seriously doubt they would have risked the supreme court as a atctical move. They screwed up, and could really pay for it April 5.


What lawyapalooza is saying is that the Republican Assembly and Senate had to pass the bill so they could know what was in the bill. Hilarious but patently untrue.

caseym54 said...

Polls mean nothing here, it is ALL about turnout. Bet you that public employees are given the day off to vote.

Lukedog said...

Part of Scott Walker's budget bill includes a provision that individual districts will not be allowed to raise property taxes in order to accomodate budget shortfalls caused by the cuts to schools.

Alex said...

Part of Scott Walker's budget bill includes a provision that individual districts will not be allowed to raise property taxes in order to accomodate budget shortfalls caused by the cuts to schools.

How evil! Of course what's wrong with adding conditions for receiving state funds? Don't want the state telling you if you can or can't raise your local property taxes then DON'T take the state money. Liberals want it ALL ways. They want full local control AND state/federal money. Ridiculous!

Revenant said...

The destruction of cities by liberals: Since 1950, the populations of Cleveland and St. Louis, have declined by more than 50%.

Pogo,

Cleveland lost a third of its population during the 70s and 80s. For 16 out of those 20 years, the mayor was Republican. Just an observation.

Revenant said...

individual districts will not be allowed to raise property taxes in order to accomodate budget shortfalls caused by the cuts to schools.

Budget shortfalls caused... by cuts to schools? Is that what you meant to write?

lawyapalooza said...

"What lawyapalooza is saying is that the Republican Assembly and Senate had to pass the bill so they could know what was in the bill. Hilarious but patently untrue."

That is NOT what I am saying. I am saying--and if you don't believe me, do a google search for goodness' sakes-- the republicans have already publicly come out against provisions in the bill they almost passed! Now that they have actually taken the time to read the damn thing, and listened to their constituents (you know, actually done their job), Walker and the Fitzers do not have the votes to pass it.

This is what the repubs themselves are saying, some publicly, some privately. And that is why Walker et al will not simply cast a new vote with proper notice. If you actually think that these folks were well-versed in what they were voting for, you have never been involved in the actual legislative process. They vote for things they don;t understand all the time, just because someone told them to. That goes for both sides.

Dust Bunny Queen said...

But before you get a voter card, you have to pass a civics test to prove you know what the fuck your voting for or against.

Good idea Alex.

I say we start with Congress.

Alex said...

the republicans have already publicly come out against provisions in the bill they almost passed!

RINOs. Gutless wonders. Another round of purging should do the trick.

Dust Bunny Queen said...

But my question then is, how would you consolidate them? Wouldn't that require an election to determine if voters want to consolidate election dates? :-*)



We just made a Board Resolution to consolidate our District's elections with the election year/date of the other County wide Districts. Previously some Districts were every 2 years on even years and others were on odd years.

To save money,(because the Districts are responsible for paying for their 'share' of the election or ballot), it was more cost effective to extend the terms of those Directors that would have been on an odd year (2011) to the next year (2012).

Some Districts questioned this because it meant that the elected official was being given an extra year without being actually elected. The court approved the plan.

I'm a fan of having a big ballot with as many issues and candidates as can be....all at one time. Instead of these "orphan" votings.

James said...

It wouldn't be difficult to name the Republicans you claim are against the bill. From my recollection two Republicans in the Assembly voted against the final passage of the bill. In the Senate only Van Waangaard had misgivings but he voted for the bill (his daughter is a teacher).

Who are these mythical Republicans that are now against the bill?

Dust Bunny Queen said...

If you want to manufacture something, why would you ever build it in Wisconsin? Why not build it in Texas or Florida, or North Carolina or Georgia.

True dat.

CAT is about to leave Illinois for greener pastures. Wisconsin was one of the suitors, however, I'm sure that the CEO of CAT is closely watching all this bull crap that is going on in Wisconsin to see if it is going to go down the same idiotic road as Illinois.

All Texas has to do is to continue to be the safe haven and first choice for companies that want a business friendly environment......THEN when they have all the good industries and companies.....seceed from the Union.

Ta Dah!!

Of course, the Unionistas don't give a shit as long as they keep getting those union dues and sweet bennies.

Original Mike said...

"I'm a fan of having a big ballot with as many issues and candidates as can be....all at one time."

We can call it "the butterfly ballot". Democrats won't know how to read it. Win/win.

Pogo said...

@Revenant

Cleveland mayors:
Frank J. Lausche 1942–1945 Democrat
Thomas A. Burke 1946–1953 Democrat
Anthony J. Celebrezze 1954–1961 Democrat
Ralph S. Locher 1962–1967 Democrat
Carl B. Stokes 1968–1971 Democrat
Ralph J. Perk 1972–1977 Republican

Dennis J. Kucinich 1978–1979 Democrat
Under Kucinich, on December 15, 1978, Cleveland became the first major American city since the Great Depression to default on its financial obligations.

George V. Voinovich 1980–1989 Republican
Voinovich brought the city out of its major economic problems, bringing about a downtown revitalization and urban renaissance. ...By 1986, Cleveland was not only out of default but was named an All-America City for a second, third, and fourth time.

txrxqa said...

.

JoAnne Kloppenburg:

http://oi53.tinypic.com/16b0igy.jpg

.

lawyapalooza said...

"It wouldn't be difficult to name the Republicans you claim are against the bill. From my recollection two Republicans in the Assembly voted against the final passage of the bill. In the Senate only Van Waangaard had misgivings but he voted for the bill (his daughter is a teacher).

Who are these mythical Republicans that are now against the bill?"

Like I said, google it. Fitz made the statement to Greta Van Susteren, and a google search will tell you that republicans have come out against specific provisions of the budget bill.

Not to mention common sense. Why else wouldn't they re-vote?

johnvert said...

These polls will prove to be useless.

ambisinistral said...

"This is what the repubs themselves are saying, some publicly, some privately. And that is why Walker et al will not simply cast a new vote with proper notice."

If they devoted they would give credence to the notion that the TRO had merit. No legislator in their right mind would open the door to that - it would be risking ceding veto power over laws to county judges.

ambisinistral said...

D'oh! Devoted = revoted.

shiloh said...

Persuading is more effective than voting!

Which is why $$$ rules elections. American voters being easily influenced notwithstanding.

>

Re: Pogo's population shift obsession, the obvious: People move to where the jobs are and the weather is nice.

And where companies can get better tax abatements ie Ohio has lost population to NC, SC, FL, GA, AZ, NM etc. because the grass was greener. And overseas because of cheaper labor costs. And manufacturing is a dying industry in America.

>

Best states to live:

# 1 New Hampshire: 35.45
# 2 Minnesota: 33.86
# 3 Vermont: 31.73
# 4 Wyoming: 31.61
# 5 Virginia: 31.57
# 6 Iowa: 31.41
# 7 Massachusetts: 30.8
# 8 New Jersey: 30.77
# 9 South Dakota: 30.73
# 10 Nebraska: 30.52
# 11 North Dakota: 30.43
# 12 Maryland: 30.25
# 13 Wisconsin: 29.75
# 14 Connecticut: 29.68
# 15 Maine: 29.36
# 16 Colorado: 28
# 17 Delaware: 27.66

Richest:

# 1 District of Columbia: $136,714.13 per capita
# 2 Delaware: $64,609.90 per capita
# 3 Connecticut: $53,296.35 per capita
# 4 Alaska: $51,044.13 per capita
# 5 Massachusetts: $49,647.88 per capita
# 6 Wyoming: $47,728.82 per capita
# 7 New Jersey: $47,705.27 per capita
# 8 New York: $46,724.35 per capita
# 9 Minnesota: $43,957.50 per capita
# 10 Virginia: $43,162.41 per capita
# 11 Colorado: $42,860.75 per capita
# 12 California: $42,727.46 per capita
# 13 Illinois: $41,439.21 per capita
# 14 Washington: $41,313.29 per capita
# 15 Nevada: $41,151.11 per capita
# 16 Maryland: $40,445.95 per capita
# 17 New Hampshire: $39,770.52 per capita
# 18 Hawaii: $39,314.80 per capita
# 19 Rhode Island: $38,953.19 per capita
# 20 North Carolina: $38,625.90 per capita

Percent below the poverty level:

# 1 Mississippi: 21.6%
# 2 Louisiana: 19.4%
# 3 New Mexico: 19.3%
# 4 District of Columbia: 18.9%
= 5 Arkansas: 17.9%
= 5 West Virginia: 17.9%
# 7 Kentucky: 17.4%
# 8 Texas: 16.6%
# 9 Alabama: 16.1%
# 10 South Carolina: 15.7%
# 11 Oklahoma: 15.3%
# 12 North Carolina: 15.2%
# 13 Georgia: 14.8%
= 14 Tennessee: 14.5%
= 14 Idaho: 14.5%
= 16 Montana: 14.2%
= 16 Arizona: 14.2%
= 16 New York: 14.2%

Best educated:

# 1 Vermont: 17.58
# 2 Connecticut: 15.88
# 3 Massachusetts: 14.48
# 4 New Jersey: 12.55
# 5 Maine: 9.33
# 6 Minnesota: 8.97
# 7 Virginia: 8.47
# 8 Wisconsin: 8.45
# 9 Montana: 8.3
# 10 New York: 7.53
# 11 Pennsylvania: 6.76
# 12 Nebraska: 6.55
# 13 Kansas: 4.79
# 14 Iowa: 4.75
# 15 New Hampshire: 4.59
# 16 Rhode Island: 3.11

Healthiest:

# 1 Vermont
# 2 New Hampshire
# 3 Massachusetts
# 4 Minnesota
# 5 Maine
# 6 Iowa
# 7 Utah
# 8 Hawaii
# 9 Nebraska
# 10 Connecticut
# 11 North Dakota
# 12 Rhode Island
# 13 Washington
# 14 Wisconsin
# 15 Kansas
# 16 New Jersey
# 17 Virginia
# 18 California
# 19 Oregon

btw, TX is (28) billion in debt ~ hook 'em horns!

and yes, going wayyy o/t can be nice.

take care

Pogo said...

"Re: Pogo's population shift obsession, the obvious: People move to where the jobs are and the weather is nice."

...where the jobs are...

Hmmm
Wonder what happened to the jobs in Detroit. I mean, people still made cars.

I wonder what killed Detroit?
cough**UNIONS**cough

I wonder what killed the jobs in Cleveland?
cough**Democrat taxes and Regs**cough

I wonder why manufacturing is a dying industry in America?
cough**Democrats and Unions**cough

ken in sc said...

If you want to build something, build it in South Carolina. Like BMW, Michelin, Bosch, Fuji, Champion Aerospace, Lockheed-Martin, Boeing, General Electric, Freightliner, Westinghouse Brakes, and Telidyne Beachcraft.

Pogo said...

"Richest:
# 1 District of Columbia: $136,714.13 per capita
"

Gee, ain't it great to suck from the gubmint teat?

hombre said...

Would it be a record for Wisconsin to do the smart thing two elections in a row?

garage mahal said...

Instead of the idea to make Mississippi look more like Wisconsin, the idea appears to be making Wisconsin look more like Mississippi.

shiloh said...

If you want to build something, build it in South Carolina.

So Ken, why was unemployment in SC (((10.7%))) Dec. 2010.

Rhetorical question.

Overall, the unemployment rate for the entire nation dropped to 9.4%. South Carolina’s unemployment rate for the entire state shows no improvement. It actually got worse! It was 10.6% in November and is now 10.7%. So what about our area?

hmm, Sanford doing too much hiking on the Appalachian Trail Down Argentine Way lol.

but, but, but Haley has appointed (26) campaign donors to state boards or commissions.

take care

>

and Pogo has whooping cough, hopefully he has good medical coverage.

Pogo said...

"whooping cough"

Great comeback, shiloh.

shiloh said...

Pogo, I lowered myself to your level 'cause I have empathy!

Tim said...

One of the reasons Prosser may be in trouble is that there appears to be no way for concerned conservatives to contribute to his campaign. His campaign site offers no clear way to donate. A quick trip to Kloppenburg's revealed an obvious and easy way to contribute to her campaign, but Prosser's must be hidden, or he isn't taking contributions. That is a shame.

If anyone knows how to donate to this cause, please post it!!!

Tim

sane_voter said...

Tim,

when you click the Kloppenburg contribute button, it states you cannot contribute money but that she is looking for volunteers. Prosser and Klopp took public money that prevents direct candidate fundraising.

Pogo said...

Pogo, I lowered myself to your level 'cause I have empathy!

Lessee, I gave data, you gave lame comebacks.

Same same!

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