October 29, 2011

"Are you just occupying space?"

The Occupy Wall Street — or Occupy [Your City] — movement made me remember an old expression: "Are you just occupying space?" It was normally preceded by another question. For example: "Are you getting any work done or are you just occupying space?" In the expression, to "occupy" is to be irritatingly passive and ineffectual. In my experience, it was a relatively mild insult, usually deployed by mothers and schoolteachers.

Should protesters want to convey an aura of inaction? Perhaps! Think of the old protest slogan: "We're here/We're queer/Get used to it." The message is: look, we exist. The onlooker is challenged to stop denying the existence of the people who are making their existence apparent by just occupying space. That's all.

What's perplexing about Occupy [Your City] is that the onlookers already know that people affected by the economy exist. Everyone is affected. The onlookers don't feel that they are at any sort of distanced relationship to the problem the protesters are attempting to highlight. The protesters are simply the people who have taken up urban camping as a manifestation of concern about the problem.

The onlookers might admire the protesters for their stamina and hardiness, but they might also be annoyed by the filth and chaos, especially if it undermines their ability to pursue their own livelihood. Why do these people who are just occupying space think they are heroic when I work all day and go home at night to take care of my family?

The protesters should be able to connect with the nonprotesters, since the economic problems are shared and there's little emphasis on solutions. (Did you see this Onion piece: "Nation Finally Breaks Down And Begs Its Smart People To Just Fix Everything"?) There shouldn't be an us/them relationship between the protesters and onlookers. It's a shared predicament, and the protesters don't have superior knowledge about the problems or what to do about them. But they are there, out on the street. Then what?

They could turn inward and resist communication, like the Occupy Oakland protesters who wore masks and then turned their backs on a reporter who wanted to interview them about what they were doing. But it would be better for them to turn outward, adopting a demeanor that would allow onlookers to talk with them and have real conversations about shared problems. Of course, a conversation goes both ways. You can't just harangue people. There must be back and forth, and since the protesters don't really know what to do about the problems, they can demonstrate their good faith by really engaging.

An outsider to the protest should be able to move into the crowd and get a dialogue going, the way investment guru Peter Schiff did the other day:



Last March, during the height of the occupation of the Wisconsin Capitol, we were impressed by a man — we call him "The Man in the Middle" — who was not one of protesters, who took a seat in the center of the rotunda and invited people to sit down and talk to him one on one. That was one of the best moments in the protests.

Why don't people talk to each other? There was a popular chant last winter — now taken up by the Occupy crowds — "This is what democracy looks like." But democracy should look like people talking to each other. Not staring each other down from a secure distance.

362 comments:

«Oldest   ‹Older   201 – 362 of 362
Seeing Red said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
MayBee said...

Oh Geezus Christ. Does MayBee still think anyone's still talking to her about immigration?

Posted at 2:15, in response to a comment I made partially in response to a post by Ritmo at 1:42.

I did not know we were on such a tight time schedule.

frank said...

I saw the 'best and the brightest' circa 1967-72 in vietnam. no need to visit the 2008/ows reincarnation, smile.

jungatheart said...

Great Tyler Cowen article on the persistence of income inequality:

http://www.the-american-interest.com/article-bd.cfm?piece=907

Seeing Red said...

just thought of a new bumpersticker


OWS = pictures of the hammer & sickle, Che, Mao, anarchist logo & underpants gnomes.

jungatheart said...

"And now.....off to make some more apple butter and chinese plum sauce..."

Did you know you're my hero?

Hoosier Daddy said...

Speaking of defacation, looks like someone dropped a Ritmo in the punch bowl.

PfMoen said...

"Maybe they should search out job opportunities in North Dakota."

And Mcdonald's pays $15-$18/hour as the rest are in the oilfields

They WILL have to pass a drug test.

Alex said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Alex said...

Could it be that dialogue is hampered by a constant drumbeat of distortion and hate emanating from professional right-wing grievance mongers?

This comment is so divorced from the reality of what's happening at the "occupy" sites that we might as well be in different galaxies.

Paco Wové said...

So, anyway, Andy still won't tell me what OWS proposes to do to fix whatever it is they think is wrong (which they apparently also can't decide on) and in the meantime the signal to noise ratio on the thread trends ever downward.

Oh well. Yardwork calls.

Ritmo Re-Animated said...

It's good to know that I can inspire the sort of fear in Paco @10:56 AM that leaves Hoosier speechless and demoralized.

Next time try to make it on the first page, Heart Attacks for Freedom Guy.

Ritmo Re-Animated said...

Personally, I think that Alex is from the galaxy inhabited by Greedo in Star Wars.

Ok, second page. All the serious people or those who might know anything about this (including Michael) are gone. Now we're left to choose whether to bust heads with the remaining freaks and right-wing geeks or to just go on to better things.

wv: murdfack. Hopefully Paco won't freak out if he sees a murdfack remaining on his lawn.

Alex said...

Why should normal people go down to these dirty, stinking encampments? Normal people go to their local city hall or community centers to discuss pertinent issues. Ask yourself what is so mentally disturbed about these #OWS crowd that they can't go through the normal channels but instead have to "occupy" city centers and cause chaos?

Ritmo Re-Animated said...

Of course, no one is as normal, politically involved and mentally stable as Alex - so he provides the perfect example for community involvement and how to engage issues affecting the national interest.

Swat!

Yawn.

Alex said...

Ritmo - you realize your one of the court jesters here right?

Ritmo Re-Animated said...

If I had the heart to look past your grammatical atrocities, I might bother to figure out what that actually meant.

Hoosier Daddy said...

Court jesters are funny. Ritmo is just boring.

Ritmo Re-Animated said...

So says someone from the exciting carnival-like atmosphere that abounds in Indiana.

But then, I'm speaking to a guy who thinks that heart attacks are entertaining ways to enjoy your freedom.

He's too belligerent to stop while he keeps falling further and further behind. It's like watching videos of al Qaeda trying to take over the world while climbing monkey bars.

Maybe that's why he's so afraid of them... he sees himself in them.

Hoosier Daddy said...

When Ritmo resorts to correcting blog poster's grammar, you know he's running out of steam.

Last time I conversed with him, and I use converse loosely, I had him calling me four letter words which came flying from his spittle flecked lips.

I felt my work was accomplished.

cubanbob said...

Michael said...
Andy R.

I have visited Occupy Atlanta and would dub it an abject failure to communicate anything other than slogans that are not understood by the sloganeers. Most of those i spoke with have no understanding of the capitalist system and a romantic view of how they would like the world to work. They were in no way willing to have a conversation with me about banking and capital formation and generally seemed to think that every dime held by "rhe rich" or "the corporations" was a dime that was taken from them personally or a dime they could not then earn. I could go on but you, of course, know exactly what i mean

In what way has the Federal Reserve neglected one or both of its dual roles and during what periods did this failure occur? Name one of the roles.

10/29/11 12:01 PM

Actually it has failed in both. The roles are mutually contradictory hence the systemic failure of the fed. That is the fault of Congress and can only be resolved by Congress. The fed can't be simultaneously tasked to preserve the value of the currency and promote full employment. It can attempt to do one or the other but not both. We are in the predicament we are in in large part due to the bubbles resulting from the fed's policies.

Ritmo Re-Animated said...

I really see this Hoosier-Alex alliance going somewhere. A partnership that glorious and potentially successful hasn't been seen since al Zawahiri joined forces with bin Laden himself.

Chuck66 said...

Most every MLK day march I have seen has had anti-Israeli (aka, the Jewish state) signs in them. Does that mean that all of those who want to honor Rev King are anti-Semitic?

Ritmo Re-Animated said...

Alex, what do you think of Hoosier's plan to enhance our freedom by giving America more heart attacks? Are you for or against it?

This is one of the crucial issues that must be ironed out if your alliance is to work.

Chuck66 said...

Why don't we talk to each other? I refuse to talk to anyone coming up to me screaming at me, saying that I, my parents, and most of my friends are greedy racist hate-mongering dumbfucks.

The old debating technique says that if you want to win, you have to make your opponent thing that you are on their side and care about them. That if they see things your way, both sides will come out ahead. I don't see who someone screaming "You are a Nazi" to me really is on my side and cares about me.

J said...

"Slang--the grunt of the human hog"(Bierce)

Grunt on Hoghouse

Fen said...

Andy: I consider the treatment of undocumented residents to be a social justice issue and that they should have access to adequate health care and social services. I consider that a social justice issue.

And yet, as we've seen with the Occupy protests, those that claim to champion "social justice" are hypocrites when it comes to their own personal day-to-day experiences. Like the OWS complaints about "freeloaders" that were the epitome of irony. See, I don't think you really believe in all this, not when its applied to your own life. I think you've adopted a "righteous cause" simply to feel better about yourself, as long as *someone else* bears the burden of your "charity". Thats why I don't take "social justice" proponents seriously.

That, and the fact that most of them are Socialists. I LOATHE socialists. Muscovites burning their own furniture to survive the Russian winter because the Politburo Elite have redirected all the timber resources to build their lavish dachas on the Black Sea. Socialism is about Slavery. And I hold that Slavers deserve to be shot in the streets.

In Atlanta, there is a lot of attention being paid to anti-racism and the death penalty (and the criminal justice system in general). I think the racism inherent in our justice system is a social justice issue.

Phrases like "inherent racism in the system" remind me of feminists prattling on about the "oppressive patriarchal rape culture". Lofty words to obscure what is nothing more than boilerplate nonsense.

And I'm not much impressed by the "outreach" efforts of the Occupy Crowd. I think they just do it for the PR value. There are millions of people (mostly quiet Christians) who have been doing this 24/7 for most their lives. And they don't do it simply to add cred to whatever political cause they support that week.

I would probably start by asking how they feel about the direction our country is going and whether they currently feel like there are practical ways for them to engage in a process of change.

Sounds like you're just going to register Obama voters under some new socialist front.

Practical ways? Hey, how about we get Big Government to strongarm banks into giving home loans to minorities with poor credit patterns?

The Audacity of Hope: Leftists lecturing us about "solutions" to problems their previous "solutions" created.

Sorry if I came across harshly. I just think you should know you're not fooling anyone but yourself

Hoosier Daddy said...

Freedom to guys like Ritmo is whatever the State allows you to do. Personal responsibility is too hard which is why Ritmo wants the State to be supreme.
Probably why he gets so giddy when he sees those newsreels of wiry NORK women marching with shovels.

Only he's on the platform giving the half wave as the lumpen march by.

Ritmo Re-Animated said...

Hoosier's just having flashbacks to when Mitochondri-Allie got the best of him and had his number at every turn.

I expect that to happen again and again. I did it to him, too. He told me to just not speak to him if I was going to do something so honest as pointing out the way he lied about Robert Cooke.

But again, this is the unserious side of the blog post. It's just being extended beyond the obligatory first page because a disease-loving freedom fighter from Indiana and a third-grade glibertarian can't find anything better to do.

I don't know why I allow such perversities as them to amuse me, but I do. ;-)

Dust Bunny Queen said...

"And now.....off to make some more apple butter and chinese plum sauce..."

Did you know you're my hero?

LOL Back.

Check out my blog later and I'll be posting the recipes and some photos.

Right now drinking some wine, eating brie cheese, crackers and (natch) apple slices and gonna sit in the sun on the deck for a while.

Occupy the Deck....FTW!!!
:-D

Ritmo Re-Animated said...

Taking Hoosier seriously would be a serious mistake.

Alex said...

Frankly it's time break out the water cannons, billy clubs and let the dogs loose.

Hoosier Daddy said...

Ritmo will save America by restricting daily caloric intake to 1200 a day. Heart attacks will be eradicated!

Diet macht frei!

cubanbob said...

Ritmo Re-Animated said...
Geez bob. With illogic as self-righteous as yours, one could argue that the Cubans you left behind once you let a communist takeover occur aren't worth helping either. Because, you know, the political conditions they created and sustained are of their own making. And yours, too, if you stayed up until any point leading to Comrade Fidel's rise to power.

I understand that self-glorification helps an FOB like yourself feel justified in your chosen nationality. Not very useful for solving real life problems, though. But you came from a country with a self-imposed problem, so perhaps that's the way you view everything in life.

10/29/11 2:07 PM

Yes I came from a country that had communism imposed on by an arms embargo by the US led by the NYT. And you want the same system here. What an asshole, but you do prove the first honest Brazilian has yet to be born. So you are a loser with a chip on your shoulder, thats your problem, not mine.

Fen said...

Ritmo: Geez bob. With illogic as self-righteous as yours, one could argue -

I think its funny that, as intelligent and sophisticated as pretend to be here, you spend most your words in futile attacks meant to derail the thread.

I almost pity you.

Ritmo Re-Animated said...

Behold: The fascist side of Alex's patented glibertarianism speaks!

That must be the freedom that his friend Hoosier was talking about. Freedom to be banished from a public space. But then, he's the one who's closely observing Kim Jong Il for cues so there you have it.

Hoosier Daddy said...

"... Yes I came from a country that had communism.."

Hell to Ritmo the fact you left puts you in infidel category.

Hoosier Daddy said...

Fen

Blog posts should derail after 200 posts and we have trainwreck Ritmo to do what he does best.

Ritmo Re-Animated said...

Yes I came from a country that had communism imposed on by an arms embargo by the US led by the NYT. And you want the same system here. What an asshole, but you do prove the first honest Brazilian has yet to be born. So you are a loser with a chip on your shoulder, thats your problem, not mine.

Lol. And your answer is to embrace the nationalism of the country that denied yours any arms.

I do see your predicament, Bob. Conflicted loyalty must present quite a problem for you when it comes to constructing a coherent worldview. You get around that by believing that problems are self-made for Americans, but not for Cubans like yourself, right?

Anyway, sorry to depants you so scurrilously, but I was getting sick of the spoilers derailing the first informed and honest debate here with Michael. I do like staying topical when the opportunity presents itself, which around here happens all too infrequently.

Ritmo Re-Animated said...

An example of someone trying to scold others for the impression of intellectual self-righteousness, with a sentence that excludes a noun-based subject:

as intelligent and sophisticated as pretend to be here...

Weeeee....

Even a comment as short as the one posted at 3:05 is too much for grammatical coherence to set in. That's understandable, given the person writing it.

Fen said...

Hoosier: Blog posts should derail after 200 posts and we have trainwreck Ritmo to do what he does best.

On the bright side, whenever I bother to read Ritmo I'm reminded of this

Always good for a laugh.

Fen said...

See? He just flamed me for cliping "you" out of a sentence.

as intelligent and sophisticated as [you] pretend to be here...

Thats the argument he hangs his hat on. Because he's smart. Not stupid. Ha.

Hoosier Daddy said...

"... I do like staying topical when the opportunity presents itself, which around here happens all too infrequently..."

It's not nice to lie. Oh I mean you do stay topical right up to the point your argument crumbles at which point like most poor losers you spout a few invectives and insults.

Ritmo Re-Animated said...

Is there a YouTube video for Fen to watch where someone proclaims superiority on account of his humble stupidity?

The only reason Indiana Heart Attack and his Fascist friends are clubbing around now is because there is nothing more to discuss.

But it would be great to see Mitochondri-Allie drop by and mop the floor with these two lunkheads.

Fen would probably have to resort to coming up with a couple sexist remarks, before slinking away with his tail between his legs, as usual.

cubanbob said...

Hoosier Daddy said...
"... Yes I came from a country that had communism.."

Hell to Ritmo the fact you left puts you in infidel category.

10/29/11 3:06 PM

Now thats funny! For what its worth, my aunt was in law school with Castro. Another aunt was a chem major at the time, another aunt was a pharmacy student, my mother a math major. All in the fifties in a university that was among the very best in its time for Latin America in what was according the lefties a backwards third world fascist state. It had a form of Obamacare for the poor and strong communist unions and the second highest standard of living in Latin America and we had a Black president. Now what does Cuba have, a white son of a millionaire and failed lawyer turned communist who with the help of the NYT and the American left turned Cuba in to a communist shit hole. But Castro is still rich. Some much for redistribution of wealth. And the J's, Ritmo's and the franglo's all would love to have such a regime. They are just too stupid to understand the first ones's on the paredon are them. Useful idiots indeed.

Ritmo Re-Animated said...

You never can identify an argument, in the first place, Coronarindy. You just resort to talking points and turning any arguments that trounce them into talking points, as well. I'd ask you to identify an argument as a way to expose this shortcoming of yours, but you'd just miss the point, as always.

So, you're not worth talking to. Better to just make fun of you, the way Mito does it. But she's a girl, and points out the insecurity behind your bluster, and that leaves you apoplectic.

Hoosier Daddy said...

".. but I was getting sick of the spoilers derailing the first informed and honest debate here with Michael..."

Oh? I noticed you derailed yourself by flinging one of your verbal poos at me and I was ignoring you.

The thing about pathological liars is they believe the lies they tell.

Hoosier Daddy said...

"... Better to just make fun of you, the way Mito does it...."

You mean Jeremy junior?

Anonymous said...

Ritmo, love seeing you spank Hoosier he needs it, he wants it, he likes it.

Ritmo Re-Animated said...

Of course, Cubanbob is ignorant enough of American history to equate any popular movement since Andrew Jackson to the commie horror show that he unleashed upon his own country, but people who were born here and who have a long family history in the land of liberty from long before Cubanbob was even a twinkle in the eye of his daddy's sperm cells know better.

As for Brazil, I just think the place has a better aesthetic groove than either Cuba, or America, for that matter. To those whose understanding of patriotism is as shallow as yours, that might be a problem.

Alex said...

Once the police show who's really masters, we the people can take our cities back.

Ritmo Re-Animated said...

seeing you spank Hoosier he needs it, he wants it, he likes it.

No doubt. ;-)

Hoosier Daddy said...

"... Ritmo, love seeing you spank Hoosier he needs it, he wants it, he likes it...."

Oh dear....

Anonymous said...

Ritmo, I think I love you , now I have to choose between Garage and you, hmmmm, choices , choices.

Ritmo Re-Animated said...

Don't worry, Mito. Threesomes might make me jealous if I were a greedy teabagger/teabaggee, but together this trio could trounce a couple dozen of the resident right-wing anger machine monsters who regularly infect this space.

Hoosier Daddy said...

You can always go threesome Mito. I think Ritmo likes Brazilian so fair warning.

Anonymous said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Hoosier Daddy said...

Actually threesomes make him feel inadequate.

Anonymous said...

Oh Ritmo, my heart is going boomba boomba. I forgot about Love, she could make it a foursome! It would be so boring here with OUT us.

Ritmo Re-Animated said...

I should have said "love triangle" instead of threesome. No sooner had the phrase escaped my lips than Hoosier Coronary started daydreaming up his favorite dirty scenarios.

As far as nationality goes, I don't discriminate. Preferences, yes. But honest integrity and a courageous grace trumps them all. Mito's got it.

It's no match for your prudish and compulsive self-hate, Indy, but we have ways of dealing with that too as you can see.

We're on to you.

Ritmo Re-Animated said...

Well, I admit that the retrograde jerking knees of the Althouse blog aren't the most exciting bunch, but I guess there's some sort of morbid curiosity I harbor that prevents me from seeing them as entirely boring.

Uptight, however...? Well, that's a completely different story. It's also one of the Achilles' heels of these many-legged monsters.

Ritmo Re-Animated said...

Ok then, that settles it. A foursome it is.

Hoosier, go get us a few beers! (And don't come back).

Ritmo Re-Animated said...

Or come back but be ready and willing to accept your spanking.

Anonymous said...

You have a point here Ritmo, they are actually quite entertaining at times in a sick kind of way. If not for "dissident" voices like ours dropping in regularly, they do tend to attack one another, which is good for a few chuckles.

Michael said...

M-A. I would not put myself in the same category asnRitmo were I you. You arenway out of your depth in these discussions. So far that what goes ofer your head is wonderful to behold. Especially to Ritmo.

Ritmo, i had to pop out and this seems to have devolved into self congratulations of the premature sort

On the matter of healthcare,however, the new system seems to be breaking down with the old. I think i am becoming somewhat neutral for the moment. The incredible number of people who are willfully killing themselves with food is going to sink the system in place, whatever the system. I am beavering to keep my own health and doing what i can to squirrel away enough to pay my own way. Somewhere.

Hoosier Daddy said...

".... No sooner had the phrase escaped my lips than Hoosier Coronary started daydreaming up his favorite dirty scenarios...."

That's funny Ritmo and then you go on to call me a prude.

You're pretty much all over the place.

sorepaw said...

The homeless and unemployed are part of the oppressor class?

I wouldn't identify street bums as possessors of political power under our system. Nor do the unemployed wield a whole lot of political power.

But those who use them as mascots, enhancing their control and extending their sphere of authority via measures marketed as helping the homeless or the unemployed, are a different story.

sorepaw said...

Well, Ritmo, you must be envious, because you believe that Ann Althouse has stolen your modus operandi:

Mischaracterization of other viewpoints is the whole raison d'être of this blog. It confuses the aesthetic of art with the aesthetic of caricature

PS. Do you still think I'm Greg Nyquist?

sorepaw said...

Hey, "J," are you Dr. Deborah Frisch?

Anonymous said...

@ Andy R.

"I would encourage you (plural) to go visit and spend some time engaging with the people there."

Why would I want to?

The "occupiers" don't speak for me. They don't represent my interests. They are marginal at best and frankly a pointless exercise in futility at worst. And even with any of that the simple fact is that they number fewer than the total number of people served by a single McDonalds burger franchise during lunchtime.

Now the media tries to play camera tricks to make the groups seem bigger. But those tricks don't last long under the informational blowtorch of the internet.

Anonymous said...

I wasn't very impressed with the video. It didn't seem like dialogue so much as talking past each other.

I also wasn't impressed with the attitude that working-class people don't contribue to GDP. Human labor is valuable and economic systems need it to keep growing.

I think OWS is going with a theme from The Wire: the idea that the financial services industry contributes less to domestic GDP growth then manufacturing jobs.

Frank Sobotka: "You know what the trouble is, Brucey? We used to make shit in this country, build shit. Now we just put our hand in the next guy's pocket."

Anonymous said...

No fear Michael, I am not putting myself in the same league as Ritmo. He is brilliant and quick on his feet and I love reading his comments to you people. I really do not give a rats ass what your opinion of me is a as commenter or regarding my intelligence. I am intelligent enough to know that you are the epitome of what OW hates, with good reason. People like you will ensure that no dialog between opposing groups will ever happen, to the detriment of this country.

Ritmo Re-Animated said...

Whatever, Michael. You're not going to break us up. And I can more than hold my own in whatever subject. If something's complex enough I look into it further or admit what the relevant points are, and whether there is something further worth withholding comment on. I'm hardly the jerking knee that your sometimes-peers here like to be.

For someone who doesn't like to be out of his depth, you sure seem to fumble and stumble your way through anything coherent to say about health care. But a financial know-it-all like yourself shouldn't have anything uninformed to say about that infinitely more mundane topic, anyway, should you?

When you're actually interested enough in that to offer a less mushy and unhelpful comment, you let me know. I still haven't given up on you.

Paco Wové said...

"OWS is going with a theme from The Wire: the idea that the financial services industry contributes less to domestic GDP growth then manufacturing jobs."

I would rephrase that as "the financial services industry ought to contribute less to domestic GDP growth than manufacturing jobs". I think you would find wide populist support for the idea that the FIRE sector is way too much of our economy. When you start talking about what to do about it, though, the knives come out.

Michael said...

MA. You see,with little nudging you admit that OWS is hatred of the rich,little more. Thanks for the one bit of honesty you have displayed on this blog. And i will count the money i made today as money that would otherwise have gone to you.

Michael said...

Ritmo. I am happy to say that i know one hell of a lot more about business and finance than i do about healthcare. Unlike a lefty i do not know every single fucking thing about every single fucking thing. And healthcare is one of those things i will leave you to enlighten me about knowing you would not proffer that courtesy to me in the area of finance.

B said...

Ritmo said:

'one could argue that the Cubans you left behind once you let a communist takeover occur aren't worth helping either'

Reading your contributions in this thread, and I use the word contributions very guardedly by the way, it's immediately apparent to the casual reader that you're both a logically challenged and sublimely ignorant jackass.

Damnedest thing is that you seem convinced that you've proven otherwise.

The Dude said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Ritmo Re-Animated said...

i do not know every single fucking thing about every single fucking thing...

Try expanding on that theme a bit, and multiplying it by a few hundred. It's not clear to me whether you're putting me in a position to appreciate your sincerity or if you're just offering a bone of appeasement.

And healthcare is one of those things i will leave you to enlighten me about knowing you would not proffer that courtesy to me in the area of finance.

You are trying to play this out of both sides of your mouth. That might work in a world where people make profits on deflated money by betting against themselves, but the real world requires some sense of truth in order to ascribe value to anything.

So, you tell me. Are you just playing the typical political game, where your peers bribe both parties of government and pretend to be on both sides of any argument? Or will you accept that I am willing to listen to whatever you have to honestly say about financial regulation, provided your motives have the integrity that wins the rest of us respect in the world of real people, real financial concerns, and real relationships?

Anonymous said...

Watching the video: OWS people come across as frustrated, shrill, and inarticulate.

Video guy comes across as a blowhard who thinks he is better then working-class people simply because he is wealthy.

"And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God."

Matthew 19:24

Ritmo Re-Animated said...

You should watch your mouth, Sixty. Allie's not as course as the geriatric diapers the nurse applied to you this morning. She's tough, but not course. You'll learn the difference someday, if you stick around long enough.

Ritmo Re-Animated said...

MA. You see,with little nudging you admit that OWS is hatred of the rich,little more. Thanks for the one bit of honesty you have displayed on this blog. And i will count the money i made today as money that would otherwise have gone to you.

She said nothing of the sort, Michael, and she was smart enough to see that your attempt to butter her up before offering that knife in her back was just the sort of game that we're trying to get you to prove you're above playing.

At some point the political process is going to demand some accountability of you, Michael - regardless of whether you choose to offer any integrity with it. Your buddies "in the biz" know this. Not everyone who makes less than you has as flimsy and mercurial a sense of self-worth as you seem to have. But then, they can't always be bought.

Anonymous said...

Michael, I know why you like Bleak House, you identify strongly with the villain.

Michael said...

Ritmo. Oh, jeeze, i am going to be called to account by the "political process"? Right.

So funny. Snowing like crazy in NY.

cubanbob said...

B said...
Ritmo said:

'one could argue that the Cubans you left behind once you let a communist takeover occur aren't worth helping either'

Reading your contributions in this thread, and I use the word contributions very guardedly by the way, it's immediately apparent to the casual reader that you're both a logically challenged and sublimely ignorant jackass.

Damnedest thing is that you seem convinced that you've proven otherwise.

10/29/11 4:22 PM

Unlike him I have been to Brazil a number of times. Yes that nazi vibe in Rio Grande Do Sul, such good times when Mengele lived in Porto Allegre. And the northeast is so advanced....

Brazil is, was and will always be tomorrow's country but never today's country unless you happen to be wealthy. Now honestly I don't understand what that ignorant schmuck is yammering about, on the one hand he denounces me for leaving communism and on the other hand supports the communist manifesto. He goes on ranting about Jacksonian America except he would be horrified if America really went Jacksonian. B you are far kinder and more eloquent in your observation of Ritmo than I would be.

Here let me give a snapshot of brazil from the air: if flying over San Paulo state you will see three farms, a ramshackle mess, that's the Portuguese farm, a neat, efficient and ugly farm, that's the German farm and a neat, efficient and aesthetically pleasing farm, thats the Japanese farm. Brazil is mostly the Portuguese farm with the Germans and the Japanese running the show. When push comes to shove, Brazil will always get in touch with their inner fascists. Don't get me wrong, I like Brazil, the country is physically beautiful in many areas, the woman are hot and the food is good, a lot of it very similar to Cuban food.
But Ritmo is a typical Brazilian, a fabulist. That's why Argentina and Brazil have their love-hate relationship, they are both top notch fabulists and can't stand that one might be a better bullshitter than the other. He has convinced himself all evidence to the contrary of his brilliance so therefore it must be so.

Ritmo Re-Animated said...

Michael: There are people with less to lose than you do. They vote. You belittle and sneer at them and what they have at stake in the political economy at your own peril.

If you can't respect that these are the times that try people's souls - tough times, times when all someone has to lose is what they take with them to the grave, then yes, watch the fuck out.

Steve Jobs knew this much, and he made an exponentially greater sum of money than you, an infinitely more interesting impact on the world, and brought permanent change to nearly a half-dozen industries.

No one finds your lording over the responsibility argument to be funny. Publish what you just said to a wider audience or a congressional inquiry and try your sneering then.

Or instead, just bask in the veil of internet anonymity on the blog of someone too eccentric to engage any audience more serious than "Bloggingheads".

If you had any balls, you'd show your cards, Michael. Balls are not something you only get to have when your ego and lifestyle approaches Charlie Sheen proportions.

Ritmo Re-Animated said...

He goes on ranting about Jacksonian America except he would be horrified if America really went Jacksonian. B you are far kinder and more eloquent in your observation of Ritmo than I would be.

For someone with no love for fabulists, you certainly wax eloquently about Brazil without bringing any facts to bear on that country, this country or exactly what it is about Andrew Jackson that we're supposed to fear.

But it was an interesting diversion.

Anonymous said...

Grandfather Smallweed, that's you all over Michael.

Anonymous said...

We are a constitutional republic. The Founders associated democracy with the mob.

The OWS protesters are ignorant of history. What makes this worse is the fact that they don't know they're ignorant of history. They're all quite convinced they're the smartest people they know. They are not.

Tyrone Slothrop said...

Fen said...

On the bright side, whenever I bother to read Ritmo I'm reminded of this


Or this.

wv: friekn-- this thread should have friekn ended a long time ago.

Paco Wové said...

"What makes this worse is the fact that they don't know they're ignorant of history."

What makes it even worse is that a lot of them apparently went deeply into debt buying sham educations that left them ignorant of history.

"They're all quite convinced they're the smartest people they know."

Seems to be a lot of that going around.

Ritmo Re-Animated said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
new york said...

"someone who makes $350k a year is rich. That's more than a few doctors, lawyers and small business owners"

You are out of touch with the reality of the last decade. Doctors, lawyers and small business owners are lucky to hit $100,000 now, and many pay their own health insurance premiums out of that. Do not send your kids to medical or law school and expect them to make a good living.

Hoosier Daddy said...

"... Steve Jobs knew this much, and he made an exponentially greater sum of money than ythan infinitely more interesting impact on the world, and brought permanent change to nearly a half-dozen industries...."

He certainly did. So well in fact he became one of the 1% crowd. Probably in the .001%. He did indeed have an impact on the world, particularly China. Ask garage, he was on a tear some time ago what a douchebag Jobs was.

Hoosier Daddy said...

"... You are out of touch with the reality of the last decade. Doctors, lawyers and small business owners are lucky to hit $100,000 now,..."

You might need to expand your circle of business associates. Nurses in Indy are pulling down $70-80k.

B said...

'Grandfather Smallweed, that's you all over Michael. '

Applebutt, you should stick with what you do best - breeding. I notice that you're looking to further develop your self worth in that way in the last few threads. Hitting on fellow travelers. And you a grandmother. You've also been...well, shall we say a bit too blatant about the nature of your prurient desires. Looking for a little 3way and 4way kink, nudge, nudge, wink, wink.

Tell me, taffy apple, given your predilection for 3way and 4way, any idea who contributed the other side of the DNA match for those up and coming middle class progeny of yours?

DADvocate said...

Doctors, lawyers and small business owners are lucky to hit $100,000 now,

I know some doctors in small town KY making around 5 times that much.

DADvocate said...

Are you just occupying space?

ritmo is the OA faction. (Occupy Althouse). Takes up a lot of space, doesn't say anything worthwhile.

Ritmo Re-Animated said...

Jobs would have been in that category even if he hadn't operated sweatshops in China. Jobs would have made the impact he made even if he hadn't relied on the poor labor standards that exist in China. Why did he use Chinese labor? Was it only a financial decision? To seem more cut-throat than his competitors? Probably. But quibbling over these trifles is beside the point. Apple would have been pretty damn profitable either way. To pretend that their manufacturing expenses were prohibitive to their competitiveness is not a serious argument. The vision behind their products is what mattered.

But I doubt any of that was your point. Your point is to drive a wedge between two different, if compatible observations. Jobs was an asshole in many ways. Jobs made business decisions that were sometimes less than enlightened. But did Jobs understand what it would take to make the kind of impact on our lives that Michael could only dream of making? Of course he did. He delivered on that, he executed that, and if more people understood the mindset behind it, he probably wouldn't have incorporated some of the negative things that his business style included, along with many that were positive.

The easier business innovations that he brought along were already widely embraced in his lifetime (like discarding a fascist, uniform, corporate dress code in favor of an emphasis on creativity).

I understand you have trouble with the fact that the same person can have both good ideas and bad ideas, or that good versus bad isn't an all or nothing thing, but the world does not bend to your particular need for simplicity. But Steve Jobs did accommodate that in what he produced, even if his flawed personality couldn't.

That's just life, man. Get over it.

Ritmo Re-Animated said...

ritmo is the OA faction. (Occupy Althouse). Takes up a lot of space, doesn't say anything worthwhile.

Lol. So says some random schmuck with an enlarged picture of his wide open mouth in front of the part of his face where his actual mouth should be.

Michael said...

Ritmo. People in the bottom half in the US live better than Nero. Good luck with your revolution.

Anonymous said...

B, I am a breeder because I had four kids? I also was a full time working nurse , for over 30 years and raised my four kids alone when widowed when my youngest was 7. You are beneath my contempt.

Ritmo Re-Animated said...

Michael: Politics in 2011 are based on 21st century inequities. No one need care (or even know) about the role model for excess that you take after from 20 centuries ago.

The fact that you don't get this is very fascinating. Would you threaten to revoke plebeian access to artificial light sources, as well? Which other wealth-creating technological breakthroughs should they be grateful to you for having access to?

What irrelevance. How out of touch someone must be to assume that people compare their conditions to ancient Roman emperors. Lol. Maybe that's your point of comparison for personal reasons.

Ritmo Re-Animated said...

Allie,

B. is just venting because he has no love in his life, and no one with so little self-respect as would take to be compatible with him.

Hoosier Daddy said...

"... I understand you have trouble with the fact that the same person can have both good ideas and bad ideas, or that good versus bad isn't an all or nothing thing, but the world does not bend to your particular need for simplicity..."

Oh dear you've done it again. You have asserted a belief I don't even have.

I for one applaud Jobs for his vision and contribution to society. I was merely pointing out he afforded mfg. opportunities to China rather than America. Then again I doubt Apples and Iphones and Ipads would be affordable to the OWS crowd if made with US union labor, which is why your comrade Garage Mahal thinks he's a douchebag. But you like Jobs so I guess you can forgive him for transgressions you condemn other businesses for.

Nope, no hypocrisy there.

Michael said...

Ritmo. You cant pull them off their enormous asses to revolt. They are glued to their flat screens watching reality tv and sports. Bread and circus, pal. They wont fight for anything but Fatty foods and cable. The slightest rise in their income and they are off on a drunk cruise to Nassau. You and Mrs. Jellyby and Garage can have your menange and plot the revolution but the populace is at the colliseum watching the lions fight the elephants and they dont give a rat shit about income inequaliry because they are totally drunk on fun. Have a look at theoccupy Madison pictures for a look at the future of your revolution. Or wait a year and a week and see how successful the class war was.

B said...

Apple Bottom said: 'B, I am a breeder because I had four kids?

Well, no. You present and define yourself as first and foremost a breeder because you use your kids as surrogates for your own lack of identity. Living through their kids is what breeders do.

But hey, it appears I may have offended you. I'm so sorry, candy apple. Don't know what I was thinking, you being the standard bearer for polite discourse on this site. Far be it from me to judge someone just for liking a little kink. Not everybody has the wit to read a moral compass.

Beneath contempt is it? Tell me, apple butt, what do you think the general opinion of you is on this site? Take a poll.

Ritmo Re-Animated said...

I for one applaud Jobs for his vision and contribution to society.

Well, it's good to know you don't envy or resent him for having something that you so clearly lack!

I was merely pointing out he afforded mfg. opportunities to China rather than America.

Yes, I know. Wonderful, wasn't it? But then, I've never heard you voice interest in manufacturing opportunities for America so maybe the purpose of this observation was just to fill space.

Then again I doubt Apples and Iphones and Ipads would be affordable to the OWS crowd if made with US union labor,

Well, that's obviously bullshit.

which is why your comrade Garage Mahal thinks he's a douchebag.

Garage isn't the only one. The guy was flawed, remember? You still don't seem to get the meaning of this, even if Jobs himself understood the importance of finding a biographer who did.

But you like Jobs so I guess you can forgive him for transgressions you condemn other businesses for.

Again, it's not an all-or-nothing thing. I can like some aspects of someone's impact without liking others. But adding such a colorful observation to your black-and-white way of thinking will cause your head to explode, so I see the disconnect.

Nope, no hypocrisy there.

Nope. But your inability to see anything clearly doesn't exactly provide you with a very respectable excuse for that.

Anonymous said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Anonymous said...

b, the joking about threesomes and foursomes was a joke and a play on words, you probably understood that. You are making yourself look really bad, maybe even among your peers, if they had the courage to admit it.

B said...

Ritmo Re-Animated said...'B. is just venting because he has no love in his life, and no one with so little self-respect as would take to be compatible with him.'

Um...what?

No, Moe, (you don't mind if I call you Moe do you? Apropos given you remind me of a famous character who employed similar logic ). If I understand what you were trying to say, I'm 36 years married, have a fulfilling life, mid 6 figure income, all the kids out of college and succeeding on their own (4 of them, with one through Annapolis and in the Navy. How about that taffy apple? Small world, huh..)

I don't use my kids as moral authority though. I would never offer them that offense.

Well, I think a fulfilling life, though I have to say that I missed out on the 3way/4way thing.

Ritmo Re-Animated said...

Ritmo. You cant pull them off their enormous asses to revolt. They are glued to their flat screens watching reality tv and sports. Bread and circus, pal. They wont fight for anything but Fatty foods and cable. The slightest rise in their income and they are off on a drunk cruise to Nassau. You and Mrs. Jellyby and Garage can have your menange and plot the revolution but the populace is at the colliseum watching the lions fight the elephants and they dont give a rat shit about income inequaliry because they are totally drunk on fun. Have a look at theoccupy Madison pictures for a look at the future of your revolution. Or wait a year and a week and see how successful the class war was.

Or, you can just publicly voice all of your (finally!) honest feelings above to the crowd, while continuing to bribe the right-wingers with goodies for holding the economy down long enough to make it the issue of the next election, and we will see what happens.

Romans didn't have trouble revolting, either. They just had to wait for the patrician conservatives to bring about an end to the Republic with their short-sightedness, and then brought the hard hats and military on board with constant revolutions and threats (and acts) of overthrow for every emperor who failed to live up to the success of Augustus.

Life for a Roman emperor wasn't very easy, Michael. And fraught with numerous threats of early death. Feel free to throw your lot in with them.

Learn your history, sophistry-spouting simpleton. And learn how to spell "ménage". What's next, "meringue"? At least you weren't dyslexic enough to spell it that way. Or maybe, despite all your supposed riches, you have no idea of how to enjoy them, let alone the meaning of culture.

One thing's for certain, classiness certainly ain't for sale, Michael. Or maybe the price is just way above your reach.

wv: idalised. Michael wasn't able to spell the things that he idalised.

Anonymous said...

B, my moral authority comes from within myself. If I mention that my kids are liberals and successful it drives creatures like you over the edge, what a pathetic hater you are.I pity your children.I wonder how they would like hearing you call a woman a breeder, you hypocrite.

Hoosier Daddy said...

"... Well, it's good to know you don't envy or resent him for having something that you so clearly lack!.."

How do you know? Or are you just being a presumptive asshole?


"...Yes, I know. Wonderful, wasn't it? But then, I've never heard you voice interest in manufacturing opportunities for America so maybe the purpose of this observation was just to fill space...."

Oh but you have. Countless times in fact. I wish we were more competitive with China and India.
Any idea how we can be?

"...Well, that's obviously bullshit..."

Is it? You said Jobs would have been just as profitable without Chinese labor. Evidently he didn't.

"...Garage isn't the only one. The guy was flawed, remember? You still don't seem to get the meaning of this, even if Jobs himself understood the importance of finding a biographer who did.
.."

Sure everyone is flawed. Then again I don't see the flaw in a businessman seeking cost effective methods if manufacturing. You do but again, in Jobs case you'll overlook it.

"...Again, it's not an all-or-nothing thing. I can like some aspects of someone's impact without liking others. But adding such a colorful observation to your black-and-white way of thinking will cause your head to explode, so I see the disconnect.
.."

See you do it again. I'm not condemning Jobs. But he was in the 1%, he sent jobs overseas, in fact, yes the very type of person OWS should be condemning.

"...Nope. But your inability to see anything clearly doesn't exactly provide you with a very respectable excuse for that..."

Actually its you, so ensconsed in your shell of self righteousness and infallibility that you cant see anything past your own reflection.

B said...

Apple Strudel said...

No dear. I am pounding into your vacuous, bint, head that YOU are the one who has consistently insulted, taunted, lied, distorted and just generally made yourself look really bad.

Again, take a poll apple cheeks. Didn't you say you had more balls than the conservatives here? Don't short change the other commenters and readers over their supposed lack of courage. Buck up, show your own courage, and take a straw poll.

Hoosier Daddy said...

"... If I mention that my kids are liberals and successful it drives creatures like you over the edge,..."

Don't flatter yourself. No one really cares if your kids are liberals, successful or living in your basement.

Ritmo Re-Animated said...

We get that you could very well be a boring prig, B., and one who has no problem employing sexist tropes against women on account of something that is none of your business.

But what is less certain is whether you yourself are the type of whore that many conservatives style themselves after. You know, someone who thinks their money makes them a great person.

It's not an example that I would follow. And if your life is more fulfilling than that, then you're capable of more than I would have guessed.

Still, it would be interesting to see how much prying judgment you employ toward your own daughters, should you have any. Because my guess is that, unless they are as boring as you, your eyes would glaze and your stomach turn.

Oh well. You can always chip in for them to get a promise ring. That would be the kind of much stranger and creepier father-daughter sexual dynamic that might appeal to you.

Ritmo Re-Animated said...

God forbid if "B.'s" daughters weren't as skinny as Karen Carpenter.

How closely do you watch their figures, "B."... you know, seeing as how you use that to define virtue and all?

Ritmo Re-Animated said...

Give me something worth debating or discussing, Hoosier - and I'll gladly see past its reflection. But you care so much more about scoring personal and political points that getting there is usually more trouble than it's worth.

Hoosier Daddy said...

I did. Your multiple replies to me proved it was worthwhile to you. Or you'd have ignored my comment.

I don't have to score points. I'm confident of my convictions.

Michael said...

Ritmo. In your long absence i had forgotten your spectacular sanctimony. I am sure your family values this trait above all. How funny.

Ritmo Re-Animated said...

Are you confident that they are strongly grounded in reality?

This has been fun and I would continue (no, honestly, you brought up some points I could have responded to in that last Steve Jobs thesis of yours), but the thread has turned so ugly with B's shots (and long-winded, I apologize for my part) that I think it is best put out of its misery.

I didn't mind the opportunity to see if Michael's bribery and snobbery has the stuff of the Roman dynasties he'd like to compare them to. But other than that, listening to B. go on his ugliness binge just made the whole thing a bit to creepy for me.

Ritmo Re-Animated said...

Ritmo. In your long absence i had forgotten your spectacular sanctimony. I am sure your family values this trait above all. How funny.

No. They just don't say ignorant things in expectation of an inability to challenge them.

Of course, I'm sure you can raise your own kids to live off their inheritance at the expense of any brains or morals. But I'm just not that shallow or lazy. Don't expect me to encourage it, either.

And I wasn't "gone" that long. What a short attention span you must have.

Ritmo Re-Animated said...

Michael: What will you do if, God forbid, your kids go to college and actually learn all the Roman history that you wish you actually knew?

Would you jealously admonish them for being long-winded? Or would you appreciate their ability to be educated in such detail about the sort of society whose successes our country has tried (and perhaps apparently failed) to emulate?

Choices, choices. Decisions. Trade-offs. Economics is full of them. So is life.

B said...

Moe,

I know this is going to be hard for you to accept, but you're displaying several levels of jackassery here.

I've revealed a a little of my life, but I comment without leaning on it. Stand on my own so to speak. Since you are obviously clueless about Apple Butt's recent history here, in which she did anything but stand on here own, do try not to beclown yourself on that subject...also.

You also seem to think I'm picking on a lady. (sexist too, huh?) Taffy Apple is no lady. She's proved that in just the last several days. She's just another puckered ass vacuous lefty bint. Madison is full of them.

And Apple Butt, take the poll. I'll accept the expected verdict that I've been coarse when dealing with your contemptible self. Man up, unless those balls of yours are as vague a chimera as your moral authority, and ask the question. Or are you afraid that those commenters whose courage you disdain might surprise you with a less than appreciative opinion of your discoursive style?

Oh, and by the way, Taffy Apple. You bragged the other day that 3 of your 4 issue were at the Madison protests. Just so you know, that alone leaves me with absolutely no inclination to be, what was your word...ah, right jealous. Leaves me no inclination to be jealous of your budding middle class liberal progeny or respectful of your parenting. Stop embarrassing yourself by using them to deflect the reputation YOU have so assiduously worked for here.

It certainly does not drive me over any edge that you have successful liberal kids. This is about you. As far as I know, they're nice folks. Just because you suck doesn't mean they do.

Michael said...

Ritmo. Two kids out of college and employed. One in high school. No debt. I dont give my children money and dont plan on leaving them much when i croak. I practice some of which i preach. I cant read Latin as i once could but i keep the Loebs around and read on the right side. Children know some history.

Ritmo Re-Animated said...

I think the jackassiest thing is that B. appoints himself the arbiter of lady-hood. What constitutes a lady, B.? Are you like the right-wing equivalent of Hugh Hefner or something, what with the way you appoint yourself the judge of female virtue?

You must spend a lot of time at those manicure and pedicure shops, Guy. I'm sure all the comments you make about how their figures are acceptable to your standards have all the charm of a catcall.

Bruce Hayden said...

"someone who makes $350k a year is rich. That's more than a few doctors, lawyers and small business owners"

You are out of touch with the reality of the last decade. Doctors, lawyers and small business owners are lucky to hit $100,000 now, and many pay their own health insurance premiums out of that. Do not send your kids to medical or law school and expect them to make a good living
.

NY is both right and wrong.

If you look at the demographics of those in the top 1% of wage earners, you would find its members starting in this order: doctors, lawyers, small business owners, and investment bankers, etc., and with that, you have a bit over half of those making over $340K or so, putting them in the top 1% of wage earners (but not, importantly, of wealth holders, or wealth itself).

But, that opens up the question of how those people got into the 1%. Let's start with doctors. Most of the doctors in the 1% are specialists. GPs, internists, pediatricians, etc. do not tend to make that sort of money. And, the docs I know doing so tend to be specialized, and the more they make, the more highly specialized.

So, how does someone make that sort of money in medicine? It starts with working hard in high school, followed by working maybe even harder to get into medical school. These aren't the ones who spent their college careers stoned, drunk, or getting laid. Pre-med is a grind - pre-med majors tend to require more work than almost any others, and the students getting into med schools tend to have to be at the tops of those majors.

You can debate how hard medical school itself is - I would suggest probably less intellectually demanding, but much more physically demanding than law school. In any case, by the end of their 4th year, graduating med students are being matched up with residencies, and the residencies paying the most are, not surprisingly, the most competitive. So, I was talking a couple days ago with a 4th year med student trying for an orthopedic residency. There are supposedly better than 100 applicants for each such position. Thence onto a 7 year residency, where they get paid something, finally, but not that much, for 80+ hour weeks. Then, if you want to do something really lucrative, like spinal surgery, we are talking another year or so in a post-residency fellowship.

So, we are talking someone finally getting out of school, fully trained, at maybe 33 or 34, after working insanely hard since probably high school.

And, yes, that is the most numerous demographic group in the 1%.

Bruce Hayden said...

On to lawyers, the second largest demographic group in the 1%. The economics of law are more skewed than for medicine - fewer people making a lot of money, but those at the very top make a lot more than the top doctors. The top doctor I know made at his peak about $4 million a year. He is a specialized surgeon who still works 80 hour weeks, and sometimes operates for more than 40 hours a week. Top attorney I know had a boutique that made better than $100 million one year, and his was the only name on the small firm.

The most likely way to make enough money as a lawyer to be in the top 1% is as a partner in a Big Law firm. Getting hired by one of those firms right out of LS typically requires that you are either in the top 1/4 or so of a very top LS, or the top couple of percent of a lesser ranked LS. Ann, BTW, was one of the rare ones hired by such a firm right out of LS. If you want to get a taste of the competition here, try watching the movie "Paper Chase". In any case, again, you don't get into these jobs these days by partying very much in HS or college, or, indeed, in LS. An awful lot of work goes into it.

Then, you face typically 7 or so years where you are trained as an associate before you can become an income partner. During that time, you typically must bill and collect more than 2,000 hours of work a year AND build up a client base in your spare time. Some of these firms are requiring maybe 2,300 hours, which translates into 2,500+ hours actually worked. In the most lucrative firms, the ratio of associates hired to those making partner may be 10-1. And, that also means that you aren't making partner until your early 30s, and even then, often not an equity partner, which takes longer, and more business.

You can, of course, lateral in, which typically takes maybe 2x or so in bookable business to what you make in the firm. That is how I joined a firm of 200. But that means better than $650k in a book of business to even come close to the top 1%. That is business that will follow you to your new firm. Not easy, esp. with maybe a million other attorneys trying to take that business away from you, including the attorneys at your old firm.

The other group of lawyers who make even more money are a very small group of litigation attorneys. Figure that 75% of such attorneys starve, 20% do well, 4% do even better, and 1% win the lottery. If you see their billboard, they are probably in the 75%. And, yes, it takes decades to make it into that 1%, and very few ever do.

Point of all this is that in both cases, medicine and law, those who are in the top 1% have delayed gratification and worked extremely hard, at least into their early thirties, and most often into their forties. And these are the two top groups of the vaunted 1%.

Pastafarian said...

Welcome back, Ritzy Brassiere. Looks like you haven't changed much: You pointed out someone else's poor grammar and improper sentence construction, with an incomplete sentence of your own. Then shortly after criticizing a commenter's spelling skills, you misspelled a six letter word. It wasn't even an innocent typo, but an outright misspelling.

You're the smartest guy you know, Ritzy. Unfortunately, you're such an asshole that you don't know many.

Ritmo Re-Animated said...

Good thing you know assholes (takes one to know one) better than you do intelligence, Barbari-farian.

But unlike you, I'm able to behave, when the situation calls for it.

Sounds like you guys missed the infusion of any knowledge into these threads. It must have been, like, one GIANT ignorance-fest while I was gone. I'll have to check out more often. If you get stupid enough, who knows how much self-inflicted damage y'all might do? And the last thing I'd want to do is to get in the way of that.

Speaking of ignorance and idiocy, how's the speech therapy case known as Rick Perry working out for you? It had been a while since I'd seen the rabid right-wing that worked up, and then the guy opened his mouth.

He should have just stuck to threatening his debate opponents with execution. More your guys' style.

Bruce Hayden said...

Let me add that there is another way to make it into the top 1% of wage earners as an attorney, and that is to use political connections. Michelle Obama did so (barely) by being married to a U.S. Senator. There is a surprising amount of that going on. Also, you have lobbyists, who are often former members of Congress, their senior staff, and former senior Executive Branch staff - but most of such do not make that sort of money, just the best connected. And, most of them are technically attorneys (though, that is apparently not required in D.C., even though it has, by far, the highest concentration of attorneys in the country) And, most of that money flows to D.C. lobbyists, and, hence my point at the start of this thread that the occupiers should be protesting primarily in D.C., where their presence is decidedly small.

Hoosier Daddy said...

Ritmo I must say I did enjoy this one snippet of your post on a previous thread:

.... The Teabags are just schizophrenic about the fact that they cooperated with the Great Scheme to outsource our middle class to China....

Would that include Steve Jobs, or was his contribution of Apple sufficient absolution for his role in the Grand Scheme?

Michael said...

Pastafarian. I like Ritmos accusation of a lack of knowledge of Roman history which was not claimed by this writer and then followed by an hilariously wrong commentary on Roman history. It is nice that he corrects my spelling, however, since i have yet to master the ipad keuboard and cant be bothered to edit carefully. But he is a sanctimonious dipshit, poorly educated and common.

Pastafarian said...

To be honest, Ritzy, you've been missed. We need a few liberals around here to beat the shit out of, and all but a few have run off with tails between their legs during Obama's Recovery Summer.

We've been left only with the slow but steady garage, and the rabid nincompoop J.

Perry's doing great. I'd be happy with any of the top 3 or 4 Republicans. With luck, we won't know the nominee until the latest possible date, and the liberal media won't have so much time to tear them apart.

B said...

Moe,

I don't consider myself the arbiter of lady-hood. That's just another manifestation of your poor reading comprehension and/or cognitive skills. Or perhaps it's just another example of your knee jerk tendency to employ logical fallacies. You seem to have a great deal of trouble understanding the written word. I've noticed that about you. Rather defines you actually. Well, doesn't matter I guess and off point.

No, I just call it like it is. Apple Taffy Bottom has taunted, lied, distorted, and just generally been an asshole here over the last couple of days. It's not a gender thing. It's just the way she is I suspect. I see no reason that she should be treated any differently than she does the other posters here.

In some ways I don't blame her for presenting herslef as poorly as she does. Like yourself, she's WAY out of her depth here. So it's understandable that she showed up at a gunfight waving a knife and expected a successful outcome.

Rick said...

Shared problem? The moochers want more and more, in perfect step with the government that wants to take from producers and give to the moochers. It is like saying there is a shared problem between a rapist and his victim. Gee, let's just lie down and talk about it, like we do in law school.

Alex said...

Bruce, maybe doctors are the most numerically represented in the top 1%, but if you take the top 0.1% it's exclusively venture capitalists, hedge fund managers, CEOs.

B said...

'But he is a sanctimonious dipshit'

'Puckered ass ninny' was how my Dad often referred to a sanctimonious fool. I think it apt in Moe's case,, and in Apple Butt's case also.

Oh, by the way, in case anyone was wondering - and I suspect that a lot of people got it - the Candy Apple, Apple Butt, Taffy Apple, and so on, are an intentional play on the screen name Mito Allie used the last time she decided to show off here. Her screen name back then, sometime around the same time frame as the runaway legislators and the followup go round of the endless Madison protests was Apple Strudel or Apple Schnitzel or something of that sort.

Ritmo Re-Animated said...

Well, if anyone's the expert on sanctimony it's Michael. How rich it is to hear him declare that I was wrong about a subject he claims to know nothing about, but without saying exactly what was wrong about it. (Facts, anyone?) This all comes after his sanctimonious claims to superiority over people who aren't as wealthy as he, a form of sanctimony that the jerking knee-baggers seem to endorse en masse.

And then we've got Barbari-Farian, who thinks knowledge in itself (or at least an appreciation for it) is an utter sin. Woe be he when his sorry self finds out that a mere willingness to kill people you don't like, especially when unaccompanied by the ability to actually speak, will not win his role model a nomination, let alone the presidency.

But it is fun to watch the silly sack of soot cheer the guy on. Barbie might actually have the decency to eat his words when he finds out that one idiot from Texas was one too many for this country. Even Bush wasn't anywhere near as dumb as Rick Perry, and it's pretty pathetic that The Barbarian lacks the foresight to appreciate this basic fact.

B.'s not worth even the courtesy of the retorts that Barbi and Mikey merit.

It's funny to watch the way it takes three jerking knees (well, technically four - but Hoosier's admirably and honorably taken the high road of preferring an honest debate about Steve Jobs and outsourcing work to China) to take me on. And they haven't even proved a single point.

But then, I could take on half this blog community with three lobes of my brain tied behind my back. So could anyone who possesses said organ.

Peano said...

But they are there, out on the street. Then what?

Tear gas comes to mind.

Ritmo Re-Animated said...

Oh, and Mike - I'm sure you'll get the hang of the touchscreen apparatus someday. Just remember, it follows a QWERTY format, but on a glass display instead of on raised keys. Just like the kind the waitresses you look down upon use when they return to the bar and input your order. I know you think you're too good to do what they do now, but soon you'll get the hang of their skill.

I tell you this because I care. Someone as sanctimonious as yourself should definitely get the hang of a few basic skills, typing chief among them. I'm glad to help. Internet flaming is just not the same when your words come out as the clunky equivalent of caveman speech. Works for Barbari-farian, but you're supposed to be the pretend civilized guy on his team.

How else could you convince everyone to bow down to those big bags of money you carry around? The dollar signs emblazoned across the fabric just might go unnoticed, or unappreciated.

sorepaw said...

Well, I admit that the retrograde jerking knees of the Althouse blog aren't the most exciting bunch, but I guess there's some sort of morbid curiosity I harbor that prevents me from seeing them as entirely boring.

I dunno, Ritmo.

I should think you'd be bestowing your precious efforts on an audience capable of bowing before your unexcelled brilliance, instead of wasting them on such unworthy supplicants as you seem to have been finding around here.

Yet you're posting 45+ times on this one thread.

Could it be that you're failing to find the audience you want, because you're strictly a legend in your own mind?

Ritmo Re-Animated said...

Wow. This thread got overly heated fast. I see above that Michael was actually trying to downplay Mito's contribution and limit her participation, but the typos obscured the meaning of what he was trying to say.

I guess it sorta set me off.

Michael: Allie's intelligent and has the courage of her convictions. If "B." wants to disrespect her with dishonorable intentions, so be it. You did nothing of the sort, but rest assured that I think she's got more than enough grit and wit to hold her own here.

As far as what you may have been thrown aback by, given the liberties I took regarding my retelling of Roman history, know this: The late Roman Republic was rife with corruption, and there was a conservative-liberal dynamic to it. The inchoate factions they had weren't as solid as political parties today, but the primeval ideological split back then could be recognized now. The Optimates stood for the idea of virtue, even if they couldn't use it as a governing platform. Same as today. The Populares, as their name suggests, stood for the actual needs of the people, and they followed in the traditions of those who stood for an equitable distribution of property among those who had paid their dues (i.e. veterans), going all the way back to the Gracchi nearly a century before.

The late Roman Republic had become ungovernable, rife with corruption, and distracted by the same sort of nonsense arguments regarding "virtue" then that conservative talk radio and the rest of their media machines distract us with now. Caesar might have been a dictator, but his goals no less popular than Obama's are today. See any parallels?

When the conservative Optimates faction struck him down, they remained an untenable force. Those who loved Caesar and followed in his footsteps took up a long campaign of vengeance, and did not stop until they were done.

What followed next should be a bit less obscure, even - hopefully - to you. But you never know. Let me know if you want to brush up on that period, as well.

But the point is the same. Conservatives, while giving lip service to noble notions of virtue, thought they could forever distract a republic from its basic, day-to-day needs. And they found out, the hard way, that this is not how republics function and survive.

Hopefully your buddies on the street will take this lesson and their medicine a little less harshly. But that is up to them.

And thanks for the opportunity to talk some sense and some facts with you.

B said...

Tell you what, Moe, it's late so let's just zero in on the parting shot to Michael, since I think that about sums things up.

'This all comes after his sanctimonious claims to superiority over people who aren't as wealthy as he, a form of sanctimony that the jerking knee-baggers seem to endorse en masse.'

Well, I'll be damned. I read the thread, and for the life of me, I don't see where Michael claims any such thing. Gonna have to go with you being a liar, Moe.

'I could take on half this blog community with three lobes of my brain tied behind my back. So could anyone who possesses said organ.'

I dunno, Moe. You can tie three lobes of your brain behind your back? Seems to me that you could put them to better use. If I recall correctly, there are 4 lobes. If you're only using one, that would make you a quarter wit.

We may have zeroed in on the misunderstanding here. People have been assuming you were a half wit. Should have cut you a bit more slack.

Ritmo Re-Animated said...

Na Sore. One Allie and a couple others are all I need.

I realize now that I posted a few too many comments in response to a mistaken dynamic set off by Michael's typos, and I wouldn't be averse to deleting some of those.

But most of what I just said to Michael in the last comment should say it all. I'm fine with signing off now, as I would have been with closing out the thread 145 comments ago, but others were intent on keeping it up. I'm a sucker for not backing down from provocation, and Allie is too cool for me to back away from the chance to defend her.

That's about what did it all in. Next time we'll be better prepared.

Night night.

B said...

'Allie is too cool'

Get out more.

Ritmo Re-Animated said...

B. - When Michael claimed that people were too easily distracted by Cheetos and big screens to fight for their democracy, that's looking down on the poor.

When he said that he could count the money he made today as money that would otherwise have gone to someone else, that seemed to be a swipe at someone's sense of self-worth.

I could be wrong, maybe he didn't mean it that way - at least not consciously, but I'm more willing to give him the benefit of the doubt and that he would argue fairly and in good faith than I am you - so it's his choice to clarify.

You can call me any remaining insult you want. It won't advance anything and we know how dirty you're willing to get. But some of us don't mind coming up and cleaning ourselves off every now and then, and I never go to bed feeling filthy.

Night to you, too. Stay dirty if you want - it's your choice, but for now I'm done with it.

Sorry to Michael for any misunderstandings.

B said...

Moe said...

'B. - When Michael claimed that people were too easily distracted by Cheetos and big screens to fight for their democracy, that's looking down on the poor.'

Oh, no, Moe. That simply does not support your saying ''This all comes after his sanctimonious claims to superiority over people who aren't as wealthy as he, a form of sanctimony that the jerking knee-baggers seem to endorse en masse.'

You're lying again.

'When he said that he could count the money he made today as money that would otherwise have gone to someone else, that seemed to be a swipe at someone's sense of self-worth.'

Seemed? Moe, you were so sure you'd owned him. 'sanctimonious claims to superiority over people who aren't as wealthy as he' is a declarative statement. Don't stop now Moe. Take it to the logical conclusion. You were lying.

'I could be wrong, maybe he didn't mean it that way - at least not consciously, but I'm more willing to give him the benefit of the doubt and that he would argue fairly and in good faith than I am you - so it's his choice to clarify.'

Wait a second here. What does he have to clarify? What you originally said was not request for clarification. It was a declarative statement about Michael making sanctimonious claims. You now say it 'seemed', and 'you could be wrong'.

You exhibit a very bad habit of fabricating statements or meaning cut from whole cloth and attributing them to others.

Damned if you don't appear to be a mealy mouthed puckered ass ninny as well as a liar.

By the way, Moe. Michael is certainly more than capable of defending his statements. If you were an honest debater, you'd have admitted he pinned you early on.

Sleep well, Moe.

Methadras said...

"the problem is greed" The mantra of the stupid. Really? You insipid occupation fools? You clamor about the greedy who work for their money while you do nothing and greedily ask for it without wanting to do anything. You display your jealousy and envy and call others who have worked for what they have as being greedy while you want to do nothing and take without recompense.

sarge said...

sarge here jeebus all a that an anow the snivlin' baby to top it off...fer fuks sake

'You have many contacts
Among the lumberjacks
To get you facts
When someone attacks your imagination
But nobody has any respect
Anyway they already expect you
To all give a check
To tax-deductible charity organizations.
You've been with the professors
And they've all liked your looks
With great lawyers you have
Discussed lepers and crooks
You've been through all of
F. Scott Fitzgerald's books
You're very well read
It's well known.

But something is happening here
And you don't know what it is
Do you, Mister Jones ?"

donald said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
donald said...

AndyR, a cursory reading of the facts of the case would disabuse you of the talking points and lies disseminated by the troy davis sycophants.

I'm working Aaron the corner on a big job, being honest, I find the oa participants to be slovenly and stupid. I'll take you up on your offer. Convince me.

donald said...

It's funny that I picked now to post here. I'm on a road trip with a navy buddy from many years ago. We stopped in at savannah on Thursday. We exited at the mlk exit to get downtown. Right there is the burger king where davis shot (and killed this time) his SECOND person of the day. I showed him right where it happened, no 30 feet from the drive through window where the THREE air force service member witnessed the murder. They unlike the friends and acquaintances of davis, showed up for the appeals process and confirmed their testimony. Not one of the recanting witnesses would get on the stand, take an oath and actually, you know, recant.

I assure you my buddy now understands.

It's cool if somebody has a problem with the death penalty. It ain't cool, to stand up and lie about the facts of the case (not saying you have lied). Unless you give a crap about credibility or honor or truth.

Ritmo Re-Animated said...

B.: Go fuck yourself. Your daughters are sick of having you ogle them.

The idea

Ritmo Re-Animated said...

You're a disgusting excuse for a human being and wouldn't know what decent behavior was if you were entertaining the Queen of England (not that decent people would bother with you). And you wouldn't know what evidence was if you were a Texas death row inmate.

Your blind, incoherent rage must seethe, but I guess that's what happens to a guy with as much pent-up sexual frustration as you have. And again, stop staring at your daughters' figures. It's gross and borders on incestuous.

Ritmo Re-Animated said...

It's funny to be charged with lying for an apology by someone who throws around accusations of smug sanctimony as casually as Beavis does. The guy's offended by the idea of giving someone else the benefit of the doubt, to an extent that eclipses his outrage over his previous perception of certitude on the part of that person. So, if nothing else, Beavis has a debilitating case of incoherence going for him. You can't be certain of anything, and if you rethink your position and then apologize for coming across as too certain, then you're a liar.

Because that's the sort of paranoid world that such an asshole as Beavis inhabits. No one's as right (or as humble and uncertain) as he is, or so he says.

That sounds like a tall order, Beavis. Simultaneously flawlessly correct in your thinking and yet humble enough to not be sanctimonious. What color is the sky in your Bizarro world?

B said...

Hey Moe,

Seems like you and Apple Butt are two of a kind. Just can't operate in an adult world without dragging kids in.

The record is there, Moe. I made no disparaging comments about Apple Bottom's kids. Plenty about Candy Apple, but none about her kids. If you had a modicum of reading skill, you'd have picked up on my very clear emphasis that it's Taffy Apple's use of her kids that I find reprehensible.

And from that, you figure for some reason I oggle my daughters? This supposed to bother me, Moe? Do I have daughters, Moe?

Well, we've established that you are a liar. Bet you were a real down and dirty scut fighter a few years back in middle school too.

Methadras said...

I guess people forgot what it was like to deal or not deal with Schtickmo, the human verbal diarrhea-ist. You people are arguing with a vacuous moron. That's okay as long as you understand he's vacuous and a moron. From there on in, you will see where the rest of your conversation will go. The more he changes, the more he's remained the same. Bravo Schtickmo, you haven't learned a thing.

Ritmo Re-Animated said...

Related to him or not, no woman should ever have anything to do with B. He's clearly a sick person, with a claim to knowing the "truth" as strong as Charles Manson's claim to knowing the "truth". Good ole' Charlie and "B.", together they know exactly what goes on in anyone else's heads - once they get to tuning out the voices in their own heads.

I wait with bated breath the wonderful life lessons that I'm supposed to learn from a violent sociopath like Methadras.

Look, he even makes a vacuous fool of himself on YouTube. What a popular, well-spoken guy. He's like the more primitive version of face-ripper monkey.

Keep licking Paul Ryan's balls, Meth. He's going to have some time on his hands, what with not running for president and all. He's just not goofy or plain or phony enough for the rest of that gang. But hanging out with you could make him that way.

Nice to see that the two rabid clowns above still have nothing substantive to add to any objective discussion on anything. But they do stick around long enough to nibble on the garbage scraps once the adults have done their debating. They represent a sort of intellectual homelesslessness.

Ritmo Re-Animated said...

BTW, this video reminded me of Methadras.

B said...

Once again, Moe, I should take your drivel to heart about whether a woman should or should not have anything to do with me? Coming from a pervert like yourself obsessed with fathers 'oogling' their daughters? Hope they've registered you, Moe.

Tell you what, Moe. I'll bring the subject up with my wife. Show her your posts. See how she feels about whether she should consider relationship advice from some internet freak who gets off fantasizing about fathers 'oogling' their daughters.

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