March 28, 2012

Rasmussen does a poll on whether Zimmerman is guilty of murdering Trayvon Martin.

Is a disturbing notion of due process taking over in America? Forget trials and juries and all that stuff? Let's do a poll!
Despite round-the-clock media coverage of the Trayvon Martin shooting in Florida, most Americans haven’t come to a conclusion yet whether it’s a case of murder or self-defense.
Come to a conclusion yet! The American people should be celebrated for reserving judgment where they haven't heard all the evidence... and for knowing better than to jump to media cues.
One-third (33%) of adults believe crime watch volunteer George Zimmerman should be found guilty of murder in the shooting death of the Florida teenager, while 15% think Zimmerman acted in self-defense, according to a new Rasmussen Reports national telephone survey. But 52% of Americans are not sure.
Thank you, 52% of America.
Given the outrage in the black community over the incident, it’s not surprising that 55% of black Americans think the man who killed Martin should be found guilty of murder.
Wait! It is surprising. It's surprising that only 55% have given in to the pressure. Don't you think Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson think they hold more sway than that?
Fifty-five percent (55%) of whites, 36% of blacks and 42% of those of other races are not sure at this point whether it was murder or self-defense.
Thank you, people of all colors, who refrain from judging where you have not studied all the evidence.  This is heartening news of rationality and respect for due process.

IN THE COMMENTS: Meade writes:
"Don't you think Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson think they hold more sway than that?"

Yes. But didn't you leave out someone? Someone who, if he had a son, would look like himself? 
Honestly, Obama never crossed my mind. Make of that what you will. Do I instinctively protect Obama?

196 comments:

damikesc said...

I've found that the moment you see a rush to judgment, the best thing to do is to ignore the stories for a month and then see what is still there. Stuff tends to get poorly reported initially.

John Lynch said...

And here's another thread for 250+ comments doing just that.

Kev said...

(the other kev)

The only opinion that should count -ever-should be that of a jury.

David said...

Was there a category for left wing politicians or journalists?

David said...

Of course, if the Florida authorities persist in their determination that he should not be charged because the evidence does not warrant it, his reputation is still ruined and his life is still in danger.

SGT Ted said...

GET THE TORCHES AND PITCHFORKS.

AllenS said...

Zimmerman is innocent. Unless a jury finds him guilty.

Dan in Philly said...

Alas, such polls are used routinely to "prove" all kinds of crap, such as whether UFOs exist, whether gay marriage is legal, and whether drugs are dangerous. At one time public opinion was recognized for what it was: a measure of what people happened to believe at any one given time. Now it seems to have gained to force of law, Vox Popoli gone wild if you ask me.

Meade said...

"Don't you think Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson think they hold more sway than that?"

Yes. But didn't you leave out someone? Someone who, if he had a son, would look like himself?

Louise said...

And here's another thread for 250+ comments doing just that.

heh.

Jay said...

Given the outrage in the black community over the incident

When is anyone in the "black community" going to be "outraged" about blacks killing whites at 4 times the rate that whites kill blacks?

Where is the "outrage" regarding black on black crime?

Hagar said...

What is now coming out - that Martin was sitting astride Zimmermann and banging the back of his head against the sidewalk - fits with the injuries he had and now apparently is supported by witnesses too.
That being the case, Zimmermann was justified in shooting, even if it had been the Queen of England rather than Trayvon Martin who was doing it to him.

However, there is still some time unaccounted for, and it is still not clear just what happened where and when in the neighborhood, from the published accounts, so Zimmermann may legitimately be subject to some charges for causing the situation to come about.

The "uproar in the Black community" is rather easy to understand if you have been following the reporting by the TV Evening News departments, especially NBC.

Bart Hall (Kansas, USA) said...

To borrow some ancient wisdom ...

"The first to present his case seems right, until another comes forward and questions him." Proverbs 18:17

The two incontestable facts in the case are these: a) There's a dead youth, and b) None of the rest of us know what happened.

That's what enquiries and courts are for. In such circumstances it's a very good idea to shut up, whether you're a pastor, or a president, or a blog reader.

The poll results are actually more indicative a desperately atrophied American civil consciousness than anything else ... and that's an even worse tragedy that that kid's death.

Meade said...

AllenS said...
"Zimmerman is innocent. Unless a jury finds him guilty."

And that elderly couple whose address Spike Lee retweeted is also innocent. Even if the lynch mob gets them.

garage mahal said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
tim maguire said...

What bugs me most about this is that I know about it at all.

I'm on the change.org mailing list (though I'm thinking seriously about unsubscribing) and last I checked, almost 2 million people had signed a petition they're circulating demanding prosecution of Martin's killer.

I couldn't complain about this on the change.org site because they don't allow discussion of their petitions (you either sign or don't sign), so I vented about it on Facebook.

Wouldn't you know it, one of my useful idiot liberal friends (one of two I have who can't stop posting about politics despite never giving a moment's real thought to politics) took issue with my description of the petition signers as peasants taking their pitchforks and torches and running off to burn the witch.

I had my first Facebook argument, but I stand by my characterization.

Thorley Winston said...

I've found that the moment you see a rush to judgment, the best thing to do is to ignore the stories for a month and then see what is still there. Stuff tends to get poorly reported initially.

Good advice, although at a certain point such as when the President decides to inject himself into the story or when Congress invites the mother of the deceased to testify, it’s kind of hard not to comment on what should have been and remained a local story.

I have no opinion on who was at fault but I do have an opinion on how the story has been manipulated by so many in the media in order to “report” the narrative that was pretty clearly decided early on. It must be inconvenient when a man named “Zimmerman” turns out to be Hispanic rather than White. I also think that there was a deliberate choice in which pictures of the two were shown – picking a photo of shooter that looks like he’s already wearing a prison uniform and a picture of the decedent that was at least 3-4 years old to make him look more innocent and “harmless” in order to sway public opinion early on. Neither of these are relevant to who was at fault but I do think that this and other ways that this story have been reported has caused a lot of people to prejudge the case and dig in their heels.

garage mahal said...

Bu but but what about THIS ------> ________________ <-----THIS!

LQQK!!! Over here!

Icepick said...

Do I instinctively protect Obama?

Perhaps you just forgot about him because he just isn't that memorable.

CAPTCHA: remingle modezac

Tank said...

Jay

You may have misunderestimated the totality of the problem

This would be a good place for you to look garage. Facts.

pduggie said...

"Fifty-five percent (55%) of whites, 36% of blacks and 42% of those of other races are not sure at this point whether it was murder or self-defense.
Thank you, people of all colors, who refrain from judging where you have not studied all the evidence."

So you're thanking whites for being the more rational?

haha! caught ya!

Amartel said...

Hope and change!
The American people are finally leaving behind their fraudulent tribal and group loyalties in favor of rule of law and reason.
(It's all part of super-O's secret master conspiracy plan to stoke racial and other group hatreds to the point where they just becomes to silly to support.)

Alex said...

Notice that garage once again has nothing decent to add.

edutcher said...

It says 1000 adults were surveyed.

Adults would know about presumed innocent until proven guilty.

(OK, intelligent adults with what used to be a 4th grade education)

And there's nothing about manslaughter here.

C'mon, Ras, you can do better than this.

Jay said...

Given the outrage in the black community over the incident

When is anyone in the "black community" going to be "outraged" about blacks killing whites at 4 times the rate that whites kill blacks?

Where is the "outrage" regarding black on black crime?


If you addressed that, you'd have to address all the real problems of black America and, if you did that, it would be the end of the Democrat Party and the race hustlers.

PS Hey, Allen, welcome back.

DADvocate said...

Funny how willing and ready Jackson and Sharpton are to lead a Lynch mob.

Thorley Winston said...

I’d be interested to see how the poll numbers change over time as more information is learned. From what I’ve seen of the coverage over the last week, the facts are tending to put Zimmerman and the police in a more favorable light than the initial reporting. I didn’t even know about the eye witness who saw him being beaten by Martin and his injuries. It also appears that initial reports that he wasn’t taken into custody and the cops didn’t do an investigation or interview witnesses are turning out to be false.

chickenlittle said...

Fight the Glower!

Alex said...

garage - do you denounce Spike Lee putting an elderly couple in danger?

pduggie said...

More seriously

Background racism or other biases IS affecting things on the margins.

A white who is really racist immediately assumes self defense is true.

A white who is not so racist, but realizes this story is framed to makes whites look bad, may have picked "murder" as a default guess (if the races were all white). But his low level background racism radiation pushes him a bit into the "hey maybe it was self defense, i'm not sure" camp.

Another white would have said "I have no opinion" but his background privilege will lead him to discount the lines of evidence or reasoning that would tend to push towards affirming murder (I can probably trust the cops report, blacks are more likely to commit crimes, etc).

Clearly, the blacks surveyed have been 'pushed' on the margin by their experiences and stereotypes of whites therein to marginally decide in favor of Trayvon having been murdered. The flaw is to think that nothing similar happens in moving the marginal reasoning and decisions of white people.

So whites may be coming to 'reasonable' conclusions (I'm reserving judgement) but that's because they were pushed there from their default assumptions.

The reserving judgment margin for whites is also influenced by the black reaction. Many might have just assumed the cops made the right call about self defense, but so much black outcry convinces them otherwise. But now the black outcry is met with more evidence and confusion entails.

~N. said...

I don't think this case will ever see the inside of a court room. We have pieces of evidence, now highly tainted by the craziness going on, but we have no one sold timeline of either party's actions.

If we now have eyewitnesses saying Martin was on top of Zimmerman, is that in response to an act of aggression on Zimmerman's part, or did Martin initiate the physical contact? At what point did Zimmerman draw his weapon? Did Zimmerman verbally exacerbate the situation? There isn't a set of eyewitnesses who know where either Zimmerman or Martin were at all time.

We'll never know, and I don't think any prosecutor wants this one. No winners here. None at all.

ricpic said...

The New Black Panther Party has put a bounty on Zimmerman's head. In America! Where is Obama? Where is Holder? Since nothing is to be expected of those two racists where is the Florida DA? Are blacks exempt from the rule of "the white man's law?" Yes they are.

JAL said...

Hagar @ 1:04 However, there is still some time unaccounted for, and it is still not clear just what happened where and when in the neighborhood, from the published accounts, so Zimmermann may legitimately be subject to some charges for causing the situation to come about.

Like women walking in a bad neighbor hood in tiny skirts and tank tops?

As a number of people above have mentioned, it takes time for all the facts to shake out. It saves a lot of stupidiity if people wait. But instant gratification, or rage, is significant parts of our culture seem to be about.

Is Zimmerman guilty of something? Maybe. But self defense seems to becoming a stronger defense if there are charges filed.

If there is a trial? Expect more "Outrage!!11!!1!."

The rule of law is something which needs to be taught in public schools. It clearly isn't. Heck I didn't catch on until Florida 2000.

~N. said...

Didn't they make an arrest in the New Black Panther bounty thing?

Scott M said...

LQQK!!! Over here!

Are you driving to Chicago to see that car in a protest hoodie, GM?

JAL said...

Ditto the welcome back to Allen S.

Welcome Back S. :-)

~N. said...

Yes they did.

Although for weapons charges, not that particular incident.

MadisonMan said...

Zimmerman is not guilty. I don't think he's innocent. Certainly he killed the guy. But that's not the same thing as being guilty.

Alex said...

Spike Lee should be hauled into court for reckless endangerment.

Larry J said...

If we now have eyewitnesses saying Martin was on top of Zimmerman, is that in response to an act of aggression on Zimmerman's part, or did Martin initiate the physical contact? At what point did Zimmerman draw his weapon? Did Zimmerman verbally exacerbate the situation? There isn't a set of eyewitnesses who know where either Zimmerman or Martin were at all time.

As others have pointed out, we simply don't know what happened other than Zimmerman shot Martin. According to reports, Zimmerman was in his car when talking to 911. Reportedly, Martin knew he was being followed. The fight took place outside of Zimmerman's car, so the only possible things were that Martin dragged him from his car (very unlikely) or Zimmerman got out on his own. What happened then? We don't know. If Martin thought he was in danger, he had the same right to self defense as anyone else. Unfortunately, Martin is dead so we only have the survivor's side of things. We have not heard any witness describe what happened when Zimmerman got out of his car. That seems pretty crucial to me.

Hagar said...

@JAL,

If Zimmermann had not had the pistol, Trayvon Martin would be on trial murder, and the case then would have turned on whether Trayvon Martin had merely "stood his ground," or had wantonly attacked Mr. Zimmermann.
We still do not know the answers to those questions.

It is my understanding that the Sanford police have been acting as recommended/instructed by the local D.A., and I think they either have a rather stupid and politically incompetent D.A., or the D.A. has been playing games for some reason. There is no excuse for letting the media whip up this lynch mob furor without releasing the known information to calm things down.

Scott M said...

Is it possible Martin thought Zimmerman was a bus driver?

traditionalguy said...

The missing legal procedure is what is at issue here.

There has been none attempted as yet. The Police have refused to get involved.

That is why the media could by playing the 911 call made by a fake policeman who calls himself the Watch Captain entitled to stalk the black teen kid in the hoodie over orders by the real police not to.

Late we hear the "rest of the story" quoting unknown witnesses that say they heard Zimmerman's screams and then they saw the stalked hoodie boy Zimmerman lying dead about a minute before and about a minute after they heard a shot fired.

The police always make arrests in these cases. Because an arrest makes it up to the prosecutor and the Grand Jury to in effect certify whether or not the only living eye witness is telling believable tales while the dead man there that night remains unavailable to comment on who attacked whom first.

And what is one citizen stalking another citizen at night? Is it an attack?

Seminole County chose to protect the shooter on the grounds that shooting hoodie boys is OK where it can be shown that the hoodie boy had prior run ins with school authorities and that his mother now wants money for her son's death.

There. Justice has been done for Hoodie Boy. And BTW, don't walk around at night in hoodies in gated communities that fear black teens.

Hagar said...

@Larry,

According to what is now coming out, Zimmermann's 911 call took place down by the street, but Martin's body was found on a concrete walk (the term "sidewalk" is deceptive) up between the houses, and I have not seen any exposition of how that came about. "Stand by for further bulletins."

Peter said...

If anything good comes out of this incident, it will be that more and more middle-class men will get motivated to develop their bodies and not be content to be weakling blobs. One of the few things we can be pretty sure about is that the whole thing could have been avoided if Zimmerman had had the physical ability to avoid being overpowered and beaten so easily. Which he should have been able to do, given his age and size advantage.

Another rule that everyone can learn: when you're confronting a person under possibly suspicious purposes, maintain your distance and do NOT let him get within punching range.

Quayle said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Quayle said...

Did Rasmussen get Twana Braley's opinion in the sample?

JAL said...

I was listening to Bill Bennett (in the morning) when the Duke rape thing happened years ago(early shift in the med room ;-) ).

He was very careful to caution everyone to wait. (Granted, I think one or more of his kids were Duke alums and even played lacrosse, so maybe one might say he was biased, but he did not immediately jump on the "they are all innocent, obviously innocent, I say!" bandwagon.)

His cautions were very well borne out. And shuld be the basis of our view of how a civil, law respecting, US Constitution based society works.

Of course the heroic (/s) 88 Duke faculty etc. to this day and with no shame still teach and pontificate on race and self righteousness. Mike Nifong ia disbarred and bankrupt.

If "fake but accurate" works for you, #YouMightBeALiberal.

Jay said...

The Police have refused to get involved.


Um, huh?

I guess you don't know that the police created a report and still have Zimmerman's hand gun?

Could you possibly be any more ignorant of this matter?

~N. said...

@Larry J

I think we're agreeing. What we _don't_ know is what would be crucial evidence needed to go forward with charging Zimmerman.

I doubt we'll see Zimmerman charged. Frankly, he's already gotten what he deserved for his sheer foolhardy recklessness -- he'll never have that law enforcement career he so badly wanted, and the actions we are aware of indicate that's a good thing. He lacks judgment.

The best outcome here is a long, hard look at why the police in this county or maybe all of Florida -- not familiar w/Florida's laws -- were not required to arrest Zimmerman on the spot, document pertinent evidence (his clothing, a medical examiner's report on his wounds, etc.).

Was the scene treated as a crime scene from the start? Were bullet trajectories, gunpowder deposits, etc., documented?

That's the real problem here, and there's no way to go back and fix it for either Martin or Zimmerman.

Jay said...

entitled to stalk the black teen kid in the hoodie over orders by the real police not to.


Um, a 9-11 dispatcher is not "the real police" and you nor anyone reading has any evidence that Zimmerman pursued Martin after the suggestion from the dispatcher.

The suggestion from the police dispatcher that Zimmerman not pursue Martin was not some sort of a lawful order he must obey.

Seminole County chose to protect the shooter on the grounds that shooting hoodie boys is OK where it can be shown that the hoodie boy had prior run ins with school authorities and that his mother now wants money for her son's death.


Yeah, that's like totally what happened!!

There isn't a police report noting Zimmerman's injuries or two witnesses saying Martin was on top of Zimmerman beating him or anything!

How does it feel to walk around being a not that bright, easily misled dupe?

bagoh20 said...

Of course I'm not ready to judge it yet, but I did start off thinking exactly the opposite of what I do now after learning more, including hearing the tapes. The tapes include the actual sound of the yelling for help and the gunshot and live eyewitness accounts. So we have sound, sight and timing, but it's still up in the air, because the real question is what happened immediately around the point of contact. I don't think much else maters including why either man was in the area.

The fact that my opinion completely changed as it often does on these things is what keeps me from jumping on one side or the other.

I do see one thing that may help: Al Sharpton is almost always tragically wrong, and never admits it. That's as good an indicator anything I know.

Synova said...

Recall the Scott Peterson polls? Maybe that was just Nancy Grace and not Rasmussen?

This is nothing new at all. I've been complaining about it for some time.

It is, of course, *interesting* to know what people think. But "journalists" have a responsibility to the truth, don't they? Reporting on opinions of people instead of facts is malpractice. But that takes the place of news. They can't report on the facts, so everything else becomes news.

JAL said...

Peter @ 1:58 given his age and size advantage

If by "size" you mean Zimmerman's weight -- he sounds overweight and clearly not fit. The young man was 4-6" taller and perhaps a football player?

It's a sad story which given changed behavior on both sides need not to have happened.

But the black media scummers are beclowning themselves, and their troops can't see it.

The hoodies with Barack's quote on the backs? Better not to type anymore.

Synova said...

BTW, am I the only person who interprets "you don't have to do that" as fundamentally different from "no, don't do that"?

bagoh20 said...

I'm not saying this is what happened but possibly and I wonder what people would do if you saw a young male in a hoodie apparently casing houses in your neighborhood and looking suspicious to you, and you were driving and legally armed, would you in addition to calling the cops, try to follow him and keep him in sight?

Quaestor said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
traditionalguy said...

@Jay...I can always get more ignorant. Give me a second chance while I adjust my hoodie.

The involvement of the Police was a cover up. A cover up makes a report that concludes nothing in order to justify doing nothing. So Nothing was done and the case was closed.

It was only because the 911 taped call leaked out to the Media three weeks later that the world figured out a cover up had happened in a stupid murder.

So Zimmerman needs to be arrested just like all other stupid murders are arrested. On the facts he fits Manslaughter or negligent homocide.

But he is not a police officer, unless the local Boss Hog running this rural county deems him one retroactively.

Quaestor said...

DADvocate wrote:
Funny how willing and ready Jackson and Sharpton are to lead a Lynch mob.

The Reverend Jackson must have come down in the world lately. He used to be a rather low key race hustler content to blackmail businessmen into buying subscriptions to his Rainbow Coalition newsletter ($500 a year for 24 scintillating 4-page issues) and generally living like an oriental potentate on an unearned tax-free income. I suppose he's feeling a need...

As for Sharpton and his propensity for ginning up mob violence, it isn't funny. It's depressingly familiar. This is the man's career in a nutshell. Al Sharpton is without doubt the lowest form of human life since Australopithecus afarensis. Sharpton should be confined to a cage and fed a diet of bamboo branches and apple sauce, and his offspring should be neutered in the interests of humanity. That NBC gives this fraud, this mountebank, this scum on the shoes of the scum of the earth a podium upon which to rant his illogical, ungrammatical and totally worthless bullshit is a SIN.

JAL said...

@ Hagar -- the call was made to report the suspicious person. Both parties moved after the call was made.

Not a big problem. Some reports say Zimmerman followed Martin a ways (define "stalking.").

Some reports state Zimmerman got out of his car, then was returning to it when Martin went after him.

Again, different location not a problem. We are not talking about miles here. A couple block in about 12 minutes.

And Zimmerman was taken into custody for those of you who think not. Read the police report which includes statements by 2 different officers.

bagoh20 said...

How do you get a fair trial when the President talks about the case on national TV and says your victim looks like his son.

I love how helpful our President has been on race relations. A real smart guy, and a college "professor" of law.

Wally Kalbacken said...

Hmm. 52 and 15...

Well, two outta three ain't bad.

Somebody ask Spike Lee about OJ's criminal trial in the double homicide and its outcome relative to popular opinion. He must not have seen any virtue in that.

traditionalguy said...

@Jay... Impersonating a police officer has big problems for everyone. The 911 operators are police in most places.

Should Seminole require Watch Captains to get cars with Blue Lights on top and to wear uniforms so that when they are stalk people alone at night they will not risk being punched in the nose.

Or what the heck, shoot first and cover up later.

Icepick said...

According to what is now coming out, Zimmermann's 911 call took place down by the street, but Martin's body was found on a concrete walk (the term "sidewalk" is deceptive) up between the houses, and I have not seen any exposition of how that came about. "Stand by for further bulletins."

No reason to stand-by, that is known. Listen to Zimmerman's 911 call for exposition.

Zimmerman spotted Martin, called 911 and reported that Martin (obviously Zimmerman didn't know the name at the time - I will use Martin's name throughout just to keep identities clear) was acting suspiciously.

Martin "made" the tail, turned and stared at Zimmerman (still in his vehicle) and according to Zimmerman reached for his wasteband. This is all according to Zimmerman's 911 call.

Martin then started walking towards Zimmerman's vehicle before turning and going down a sidwalk behind the townhouses.

At that point Zimmerman got out and pursued Martin. That was against the wishes of the 911 operator, who I do not believe is an actual law enforcement officer, but franly I don't care to look up that point.

Zimmerman reported that Martin was running away. Around this point in time Zimmerman's call ends.

The 911 calls that start coming in next discuss a struggle going on, with someone yelling, and are punctuated by a shot and then the arrival of the police.

What's in dispute is the time from the end of Zimmerman's call to the start of the other 911 calls from this case.

Zimmerman claims that he was returning to his vehicle (it's unclear if he claims he lost sight of Martin or why he was returning, based on current reports) when Martiin approached him from behind, asked "What's your problem?" and after Zimmerman's reply (I forget what he claims it was) said, "You've got one now!" and decked him with a punchthat apparently broke Zimmerman's nose.

Another eyewitness (not one of the 911 callers) confirms that Martin was on top of Zimmerman and beating him when the shot happened, but that witness does not have info (as far as I can tell) on how the fight started.

There is an EARwitness who heard some of this: Martin's girlfriend, with whom he was speaking on the cell phone. According to her, Martin asked Zimmerman why Zimmerman was following him, and then a scuffle broke out at which point the call (or earpiece) was dropped.

Now Zimmerman and the girlfriend both have reasons to provide a biased account. I'm not claiming either of them are lying, just noting that they would have reason to do so, and more liekly still are just subject to their own biases.

It's that missing piece from when Zimmerman ends his 911 call to the point where the fight is already underway that is in dispute.

Apparently the Homicide detective for the Sanford PD didn't believe Zimmerman's story and wanted to charge him with Manslaughter. However, the state DA for that district told him not to make the arrest as he didn't think he could win a case in court. All of this happened BEFORE national media exposure. (And locally we were getting more coverage of the Dwight Howard free agency issue AND the NBA All-Star Weekend Shoe Riot for this to get much play.)

...

So those are the things that are MOSTLY known now. There are issues at play with some of that, but that appears to be the basic time-line, along with the part that is in most dispute. At the moment it looks like about 30 seconds make all the difference in the world, and the only two people privy to those seconds in full are/were Zimmerman and Martin.

Icepick said...

The involvement of the Police was a cover up. A cover up makes a report that concludes nothing in order to justify doing nothing. So Nothing was done and the case was closed.

Except that the detective in charge wanted to file charges, and it was the state attorney who told him not to because he didn't think he could get a conviction.

If you are going to do a conspiracy theory, at least try to do it well. This is just stupid and based on made up bullshit.

Hagar said...

@Synova,
I believe the quote was "We don't need you to do that," which indeed is current slang for "We don't want you to do that, and we will do something about it if you don't desist."

@Tradguy,

The police have not released any reports on advice/direction by "the prosecutors," which is not to say they do not have any.
Something is going on here all right, but I don't think the police are at the bottom of it.

paminwi said...

Do I instinctively protect Obama?

I'd say yes. Why? I think that once a person makes a decision to support someone/something in the past you always try to look for the good in that person or thing. I believe that's what you do. Just the other day you made some comment about Obama's calm and reassuring voice discussing the Trayvon Martin situation. I almost gagged on that one. I thought, here's this professor, who teaches constitutional law and who should be a rational, clear thinking person still caught up in the - What a great guy our President is. Isn't he just the swell? In our time of need he speaks and we are reassured as a country.

I never got it, never will get, just have to live with it until November and hope that the people of this country will vote to rid our country of Obama as President. I'd like to believe that in the words of Justice Scalia “These people are not stupid.”

Icepick said...

But he is not a police officer, unless the local Boss Hog running this rural county deems him one retroactively.

That's funny. First, Sanford isn't a county, dumbass, it is a small city in what is classified (for statistical purposes) as Greater Orlando. It's basically a suburb in an area of over 2,000,000 people. Rural it ain't.

Second, although the police made mistakes in this case, it turns out that they haven't made many of the mistakes claimed, and that they did want to file charges.

Narrative fail.

Icepick said...

Now the PO-leese you don't want to fuck with in that area are the Seminole County Sheriff's Department. Give them any grief and they'll throw your ass into a cell next to the likes of Crazy Joe Spaziano. That shit ain't fun!

bagoh20 said...

"... the only two people privy to those seconds in full are/were Zimmerman and Martin."

It's possible from what I heard on the tapes that one or more of the later 911 callers may have seen it go down. They were describing it live when the shot went off. It sounds like it was dark and hard to see, but one described that the man who was shot was on top of the shooter during the scuffle, so maybe there is someone else who knows what happened or can add important details.

Quaestor said...

I'm very conflicted over this shooting, and I can honestly say that I can't decide whether Zimmerman ought to be brought to trial or not, let alone on what charge. I suppose that I'll have to be content with whatever course of action the Dade county prosecutor finally decides to follow.

However, there are a few sidebar issues to the Zimmerman-Martin tragedy which have rendered my goat well and truly gotten. The first is the ghoulish effort of the Left to extract some kind of political advantage out of Trayvon Martin's corpse. The second concerns the "bounty" for the "capture" of George Zimmerman being offered by those Mau Mau wannabes known collectively as the New Black Panther Party, specifically I'm outraged that law enforcement hasn't charged the Panthers with conspiracy to commit a felony. Zimmerman hasn't been indicted; he's not the subject of an arrest warrant, nor is he a fugitive. Any attempt by anyone to capture him is nothing less than kidnapping. Or am I wrong? Explain to me, please.

Icepick said...

Bagoh, that's possible, but it sounds like those witnesses only noticed what was going on after the scuffle started, and the noise drew their attention.

...

I would also point out that Zimmerman had as much right to walk around in his neighborhood as Martin did. It was stupid to get out of his vehicle and follow someone he thought was up to no good, but he certainly had the right to do so.

Icepick said...

I'm very conflicted over this shooting, and I can honestly say that I can't decide whether Zimmerman ought to be brought to trial or not, let alone on what charge. I suppose that I'll have to be content with whatever course of action the Dade county prosecutor finally decides to follow.

It happened in Seminole County, not Dade County, and it will be a state prosecutor who decides. (Or would be in the normal course of events - a special prosecutor has been appointed now. So still a state jurisdictional matter, but outside the usual chain of command.)

bagoh20 said...

Quaestor, I completely agree. If you make the shooter a black guy, and some white supremacist announce a similar bounty, we would the law enforcement going nuts on them, which would be right.

In stead, we have proof that serious violent racism is indeed still alive and well in America, and doesn't really bother people on the left all that much, if at all. In fact, it looks like they think it's fun and opportune.

Quaestor said...

It looks like I'm really confused. When I first heard of the incident happening in Sanford, I thought of Seminole County. Then I heard some talking heads on CNN refer to Martin's mother living in Liberty City, which is in Dade, I surmised that there was another Sanford (some unincorporated residential suburb, south FL has lots of them) in Dade.

Thanks to all here for helping me fill in the blanks. (That'll learn me to even causally listen to CNN.)

Icepick said...

It would be the 18th State Circuit Court DA who would normally handle this case. That is an elective office, currently held by Norman R. Wolfinger.

Like Lawson Lamar (9th District) he's been in office for sometime. Like Lawson Lamar, he's probably in for a stiff challenge come the next election cycle. These positions only get highlighted in elections when something goes wrong. Lamar has the casey Anthony Fiasco on his hands, and now Wolfinger has this.

Icepick said...

It would be the 18th State Circuit Court DA who would normally handle this case. That is an elective office, currently held by Norman R. Wolfinger.

Like Lawson Lamar (9th District) he's been in office for sometime. Like Lawson Lamar, he's probably in for a stiff challenge come the next election cycle. These positions only get highlighted in elections when something goes wrong. Lamar has the casey Anthony Fiasco on his hands, and now Wolfinger has this.

traditionalguy said...

Icepick...Thanks for adding some local info that has not been reported nationally.

That the police wanted to arrest the shooter makes more sense. How the DA could prevent that arrest is a question for me. But it's Florida.

Wisdom says that unless racial profiling male black teens as preferred targets is stopped, the male black teens will continue to self defend or have to join gangs.

Rialby said...

The Dems aren't going to be happy until there's blood in the streets.

Bryan C said...

"But he is not a police officer, unless the local Boss Hog running this rural county deems him one retroactively."

Which has absolutely nothing to do with anything.

What do you contend Zimmerman was doing that somehow required police authority? Walking on a public street? Following someone in a public place? Speaking to another person without permission? Carrying a licensed handgun? Calling 911? Being suspicious?

Short of some new evidence showing he physically assaulted Martin, the most he seems guilty of is being rude.

Icepick said...

Quaestor, Trayvon Martin lived in Dade County with his mother. He had been suspended from school for carrying an empty baggie with traces of marijuana in it, and was in Sanford visiting his father at the father's fiancee's home.

Hagar said...

"... the only two people privy to those seconds in full are/were Zimmerman and Martin."

Correct. The broken nose and bloodied back of the head are corroborative of Zimmermann's account, but does not prove the fisticuffs started the way he described it; Trayvon Martin is not available to testify to his side of it, and if he was, it would still be "he said/he said," and who are you gonna believe?.

So, I think the commenter above who said this case will never see the inside of a court room, is correct.

Even trespass won't work, since they were on a common walk where both were entitled to be.

The most they can charge Zimmermann with is foolishness in his Neighborhood Watch role, and that is not worth the cost of the commotion charging him with some sort of misdemeanor is going to cause.

Rialby said...

The Black and Democratic establishment are so fixated on whipping their respective (and intersecting) groups into a frenzy on this because they believe it helps them individually and collectively. In the end, it's going to turn out badly for all of us.

What happens when Zimmerman gets off with a felony with time served? There's no way he is getting charged with murder and a manslaughter charge may not even stick.

There will be riots.

Icepick said...

That the police wanted to arrest the shooter makes more sense. How the DA could prevent that arrest is a question for me. But it's Florida.

No, it's common sense. The disputed 30 seconds (or so) are disputed. The evidence can be spun as everything from Martin acting as the aggressor and Zimmerman killing him in self-defense to Zimmerman being the aggressor and Martin fighting back successfully, until Zimmerman used his gun.

The currently known evidence can support either conclusion. Also, as each bit of new evidence has come out, it has made what happened in thos missing seconds no clearer. It HAS cleared up a bunch of what happened before and after, but the most important part remain clouded. There's one eyewitness, whose testimony is in question, one earwitness, whose testimony is incomplete and can be disputed, and one dead body. The attorney probably decided it wasn't worth a show trial if he knew he couldn't get a conviction.

Since then we've had a lot of spin, starting with Martin's family and their attorney. I don't blame them for it. If it was my child that was dead I'd want Zimmerman's ass in jail (or worse) too, especially given that it doesn't appear that Martin was up to anything other than a run to the convenience store for a snack.

But because of the racial angle (compounded by the police originally stating that Zimmerman was white, from what I can tell) that has grown all out of proportion. Add to that the Southern thing, as well as Sanford PD's own recent past, throw in some professional scoundrels*, a culpable/guillible media (they could have at least run more current pictures of Martin, instead of pictures from his boyhood), and the next thing you know we've got the Next Big Thing in the American Black Experience.

* I noted that Ray Lewis was one of the leaders of the rally and march on Monday. I guess that now that his professional football career is winding down he's looking for a new line of work. And hey, it's not like he doesn't know a thing or two about murdering innocent black men and getting away with it!

Hagar said...

If the altercation had ended with Martin succeeding in crushing the back of Zimmermann's head, he would have claimed he was being stalked (true), he was in fear of his life (only he would know), and he decided to turn around, "stand his ground," and charge.

And there would have been no way of charging him with anything either, especially since Zimmermann indeed was armed.

damikesc said...

Not knowing who is guilty or innocent --- how can a trial even happen?

The jury pool is completely tainted. Top to bottom. There isn't a fix for this.

And the CBC members saying he should be arrested "for his protection" are no better than your random bigoted sheriff in the 1950's.

Rialby said...

Am I crazy to think that this is the second time in 20 years that the Democratic party is trying to enrage the black community in an effort to help tilt an election? Remember what year the SC LA riots took place?

Icepick said...

What happens when Zimmerman gets off with a felony with time served? There's no way he is getting charged with murder and a manslaughter charge may not even stick.

There will be riots.


I'm increasingly thinking that riots are unlikely, outside of Miami. (And Miami is due for another race riot.)

There's too much that people agree on in this case.

First, Martin shouldn't be dead for what he was doing prior to the fight.

Second, Zimmerman should have stayed the FUCK in his vehicle. Zimmerman does that and nonoe of this happens.

That doesn't sound like much, but I believe it represents a common ground which most everyone can clinge to.

Also, I'm thinking that maybe the black community has learned that burning down their own neighborhoods doesn't accomplish much.

And finally, despite all the yammerheads, race relations really are better now than they were. I'm not saying that problems don't exist, but this isn't Selma Alabama in 1960.

Revenant said...

Second, Zimmerman should have stayed the FUCK in his vehicle. Zimmerman does that and nonoe of this happens.

It is his neighborhood. Why should he have to stay in his truck?

Yeah, I know, "leave it to the cops". Cops don't do squat; they show up after everything's over and draw a chalk outline around the bodies.

traditionalguy said...

Icepick...I agree with your analysis.

So why do you still feel that an arrest of this shooter/stalker was not the right thing to do? That would get back that the lost trust in the Police/Courts that CNN destroyed when it played the 911 tape together with a picture of younger Trayvon.

The dilemma remains that Trayvon's only reason for being stalked and killed was that he loved his skittles and his girlfriend enough to defend himself in the dark from the neighborhood's self appointed German bully.

Scott M said...

Also, I'm thinking that maybe the black community has learned that burning down their own neighborhoods doesn't accomplish much.

You know, logical adults would think so, but then things like this keep happening.

Icepick said...

Here's a question I would like to see answered: What kind of pants was Trayvon Martin wearing? All this talk about the hoodie and no mention of the pants.

The reason I'm curious is because Zimmerman, during his 911 call, mentions Martin reaching for his waistband. If Martin was wearing typical ghetto-wear, he was wearing pants about 10 sizes too big. You see that all the time in my neighborhood. The guys have to have their hands down at their crotch to hold the pants up. Or phrased differently, they're reaching for their waistband.

Which incidentally makes such individuals not scary. How are you going to commit a crime that requires moving quickly if you have to devote one arm to holding your pants up, and have to walk funny besides?

Icepick said...

It is his neighborhood. Why should he have to stay in his truck?

Yeah, I know, "leave it to the cops". Cops don't do squat; they show up after everything's over and draw a chalk outline around the bodies.


You don't have to tell me about cops not doing squat, especially in Central Florida. What's your experience?

That said, and acknowledging as I did above that Zimmereman had the right to get out and walk around, it was a stupid-assed thing to do. The police were already on their way, there was no indication that anyone or anything else was in jeopardy at the time Martin started to "flee the scene", and Zimmerman had reported that Martin had reached for his waistband in a threatening manner. So, he thinks he has seen someone on drugs, up to no good, who is potentially armed, the police are a couple of minutes out, and he decides to go after the guy.

That is looking for trouble, which he has since found.

' "Never get out of the boat." Absolutely goddamn right! Unless you were goin' all the way...'

Revenant said...

The dilemma remains that Trayvon's only reason for being stalked and killed was that he loved his skittles and his girlfriend enough to defend himself in the dark from the neighborhood's self appointed German bully.

A few observations:

1. The sole source of the "Martin was just out on a snack run" story is the Martin family. We don't know that it is true any more than we know Zimmerman's story is true.

2. Following someone is not "bullying". Neither is being suspicious of them. If Zimmerman confronted Martin and Martin was innocent of wrongdoing you could call that "bullying" -- but we don't know that Zimmerman did that, and judging from his 911 call it doesn't sound like he would have. The last thing he discussed with the dispatcher was where he would meet the police.

3. In the phone call, Zommerman was afraid to give out his street address because he didn't know where Martin was and thought he might overhear. Does that sound like a guy eager to confront Martin? It sure doesn't to me.

Doubting Richard said...

"Honestly, Obama never crossed my mind. Make of that what you will. Do I instinctively protect Obama?"

No, you have a rational view of Obama. He is irrelevant. He is so unaccomplished, both before and during his presidency, that his opinion is less relevant than Sharpton's or Jackson's. They at least can rouse the rabble without constraint. Obama can do nothing.

Revenant said...

That said, and acknowledging as I did above that Zimmereman had the right to get out and walk around, it was a stupid-assed thing to do. The police were already on their way

Zimmerman was already out of his truck and walking around when the police said they were on their way. It is not clear that he kept following Martin after the call; the dispatcher told him he didn't need to and he replied with "okay".

The last thing they discussed was where he was going to meet the police when they showed up.

dac said...

Poll proves only 52% of americans have brains bigger than a pea

Icepick said...

So why do you still feel that an arrest of this shooter/stalker was not the right thing to do? That would get back that the lost trust in the Police/Courts that CNN destroyed when it played the 911 tape together with a picture of younger Trayvon.

So the police are supposed to arrest someone because CNN MIGHT fuck up the story later? Then let's arrest everyone now and avoid the Christmas rush...

The dilemma remains that Trayvon's only reason for being stalked and killed was that he loved his skittles and his girlfriend enough to defend himself in the dark from the neighborhood's self appointed German bully.

American/Peruvian, but what the Hell?

The other way of putting it is that a budding No Limit Nigga from Miami was looking for other places to rob, was getting the Skittles because he had the munchies from smoking too much of his own product, and sucker punched a citizen walking around in his own neighborhood. perhaps because he thought Zimmerman looked like a bus driver.

Arguing narrative is not only useless in this case, it is counter-productive. What we need are facts about the case in question.

Now should the police have arrested him that night? I don't know, as I don't know normal police procedure in that case. But Zimmerman wasn't looking like a flight risk, told a plausible story corraborated by witnesses, made himself available to questioning, etc. And he WAS taken into custody for questioning and examination. (That fact wasn't reported in a lot of the earlier press stories.)

As for arresting him then or later? I wish they had. That would have at least taken some of the wind out of the sails of the professional vultures now trying to make a buck off this case. I doubt it would have led to a conviction and would have probably been a waste of time.

Rialby said...

Yes, race relations are far better until someone convinces young people that they're not. This is what the Dems are so desperately trying to do.

cassandra lite said...

I wonder if Johnny Cochrane would be in favor of a rush to judgment here.

Rialby said...

"The last thing they discussed was where he was going to meet the police when they showed up"

Absolutely. And as Rev. said before - he didn't want to give his address. When I listened to the whole thing, I heard a guy who sounded like he stopped following Martin and who was afraid that Martin was possibly listening to his phone call. He didn't want to give his address and specifically asked the police to call him meaning that he would not necessarily be near the scene when they showed up. It sounded to me like he was about to get back in his truck and drive back to his house or to continue on to the grocery store (his original destination).

Icepick said...

I wonder if Johnny Cochrane would be in favor of a rush to judgment here.

Since I'm quoting movies: "The dead know only one thing: it is better to be alive."

Rialby said...

If you listen to the whole call, you'll hear someone (Zimmerman) who sounds a bit scared. He doesn't sound like some crazed nutjob who's out hunting down people.

If I were to guess, after he hung up the phone he came face-to-face with Martin who had just heard this "white" boy call the cops on him. Zimmerman was quickly overpowered by an angry and far more agile Martin.

Rialby said...

I mean, it's not like Sanford is The Villages. There's clearly a real crime problem there:

Sanford crime

bagoh20 said...

"it doesn't appear that Martin was up to anything other than a run to the convenience store for a snack."

I don't know if it's confirmed, but I read the following: That earlier when Martin was busted at school, they found women's jewelry of unknown origin in his possession and he didn't have an explanation for it.

The scenario which is possible that clears Zimmerman is that he lost him and gave up following Martin and turned to head to his truck, but on the way back Martin comes from behind and attacks him, including breaking his nose and hurting his head. Martin forces him to the ground and when fearing that he will soon be overpowered and helpless with his gun in his assailant's hand, he shoots.

Why did it all happen? Possibly, beacause Martin was indeed casing the houses and looking very suspicious as Zimmermann described on the phone and with recent burglaries (200 in the area), he wanted him to get caught and so followed him to help the cops find him.

I read that it was raining and according to Zimmerman on the phone, Martin was just walking around aimlessly, and not like he was headinh home from the store in the rain. That sounds suspicious looking to me.

And no one has answered my question above about would you follow such a suspect in your neighborhood after calling 911 and with the cops on the way?

Rialby said...

Oh Christ. You can always count on the Obama campaign...

"His Republican opponents have jumped all over him because they do want to play politics with this issue. The President spoke from his heart on this, it was trying to emphasize with some parents who had just lost a child. By any measure, this was a tragedy and we need to let the investigation take its course," Stephanie Cutter, Obama's Deputy Campaign Manager, said on MSNBC today.

"People have to stop politicizing it," she added. "It's no surprise that some of our Republican opponents are trying to make an issue with this. But the President spoke from the heart and we need to let the investigation take its course."

rhhardin said...

Did they ask how many wanted Tinker Bell to live.

Icepick said...

The problem in The Villages is STD. (I wish I was making that up.)

Icepick said...

And no one has answered my question above about would you follow such a suspect in your neighborhood after calling 911 and with the cops on the way?

No I wouldn't. I'd head to my home to see that it was secure.

Of course, I'm in Pine Hills, so if I did follow some black kid around wearing a hoodie I'd be the suspicious looking one.

Plus, we have so many overhead police helicopter flights through a given week that the place is known as Chopper City. I don't want to be the suspicious white guy walking around under those circumstances. My white face will show upo nicely in a spotlight.

Dante said...

Isn't it interesting how many people have an opinion of his guilt or innocence? It tells you something about how American society thinks, and also how much persuasion the press has.

bagoh20 said...

On my question of would you follow, and I included that you were legally armed like Zimmerman, I would probably not if I was armed, but probably would if not. I live in LA and I would fear the cops more than the thugs when I have a gun on me. They are more likely to shoot me, and if not, I'm pretty likely to end up in jail if they find the gun. There are a lot of circumstances where the cops are the scariest actors to be concerned about. At least the thugs usually run away.

Icepick said...

rialby, I'd take that site with the crime stats with a grain of salt. I looked my my neighborhood (Pine Hills) and couldn't find a link to the crime stats. (Since Pine Hills is in unincorporated Orange County they might not be as readily available.) However, the site did say there were no sex offenders in the area. However, a quick search on one of the national databases shows almost 1100 such offenders in the area. Oops.

lemondog said...

Tin man has no heart.......or is that no brain?

Ken said...

That said, and acknowledging as I did above that Zimmereman had the right to get out and walk around, it was a stupid-assed thing to do.

This is bullshit. It's beliefs like that that make predators feel entitled (and safe) to be predators.

Just go with the flow. Let it happen. Be a victim. Whatever you do, for god's sake, don't stand up for yourself, your neighbors, or you community. The wussification of the West.

I'm positive this idea of being a pussy is the reason events like 9/11 even occur. A dozen people take over four planes with box cutters? Seriously? They should have gotten their asses kicked. In addition to recognizing the tragedy of that attack, we should also take a minute to recognize what pussies the airline passengers were to allow themselves and others to be killed with so little of a fight. Thank god there were some fighters on Flight 93, but they didn't start fighting till thousands were all ready killed and after the plane had been taken over.

You can be a pussy if you like. I prefer to defend myself, my neighbors, and my community. Yes, I do challenge anyone on my street I don't know. I want to know why they are here and what they want.

AllenS said...

Fine, let's have all the black leaders of this country, Jackson, Spike Lee and Sharpton, encourage racial violence against all the Zimmermans, no matter where they live. No justice, no peace. Good. Then after the riots lets have an election on who we want to rule this country for the next 4 years. Hey, "he looks just like my boy, if I had one". Double good. Vote again for the Affirmative Action candidate. Someone who will provide us with racial healing.

DADvocate said...

his is bullshit. It's beliefs like that that make predators feel entitled (and safe) to be predators.

Very true. Plus, an awful lot of people seem to be missing out on the fact that neighborhood watch groups, whether affiliated with National Neighborhood Watch Institute (NNWI) or not, are promoted and supported by police departments across the country. Now people like icepick are trying to say walking around your own neighborhood helping to make is safe is borderline criminal.

Like you said, with dumb asses like icepick around, no wonder predators think they can prowl wherever they please.

Trochilus said...

Cases, and in particular criminal cases, are not about what happened. That is a difficult concept for some people to get.

Cases are only about what someone can "prove" happened . . . or, fail to prove.

In this case, one current story indicates that one detective thought Zimmerman should have been charged . . . largely, it seems, because he did not believe Zimmerman's version of events.

But regardless of how much a wise prosecutor respected that detective's instincts, he or she would not automatically conclude from that detective's opinion that a prosecution should follow.

If a prosecutor concluded that they simply lack a sufficient evidentiary basis to be able to convince a jury of guilt beyond a reasonable doubt, particularly where (as here) a potential defendant has both a credible story and unbiased witnesses who corroborate that story, it would be foolish to prosecute merely on the basis of a gut instinct. There is too much uncertainty, and too much at stake.

Polls, on the other hand, are far more remote and highly uncertain at best. They are merely measures of public opinion at a particular moment (or period) of time, which may (or may not) have been conducted during a time frame when there had been a sufficient airing of relevant facts to render the "opinion" of at least some legitimate interest to someone.

But as for asking about the likely "guilt" or "innocence" of someone who has not even been charged?

Really, is there a more stupid question that could have been asked? I'll have to think about that!

~N. said...

@Ken

And if you "challenge" someone who happens to be in your neighborhood on perfectly legitimate business that has nothing to do with you, and they choose to exercise their right not to tell you about it, do you murder them?

You can "challenge" away, and you can carry and operate your weapon according the laws of your state/locale and within the parameters of your particular license.

However, when you assume you have the right to an answer from a citizen going about his or her private business and threaten them if they don't give it to you, you are in the wrong. You are the aggressor, the terrorizer, the brute, the loudmouth troublemaking asshole who usually ends up like Zimmerman -- in a whole lotta trouble, whinging and whining about how it's not your fault, boohoo.

chickenlittle said...

In addition to recognizing the tragedy of that attack, we should also take a minute to recognize what pussies the airline passengers were to allow themselves and others to be killed with so little of a fight.

I suspect they might have had they had any clue that the Jihadi monsters were going to crash the planes into buildings. I think that the passengers of those first two flights might have thought they are going to land somewhere, sometime. Suicidal terrorism on that scale was unheard of. Fault them for lack of imagination if you will but don't forget to self-examine.

The Flight 93 may have known of the other plane's fates via cellphone conversations. Thus, once they knew the true intent of the hijackers, they revolted. I suspect that they didn't want to sit still for death.

Dante said...

It's surprising that only 55% have given in to the pressure. Don't you think Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson think they hold more sway than that?

Let's see. 95% of voters voted for Obama, compared to 53% of the electorate, or 95/53 = 1.8X more likely to vote for the black president.

Here 55/33 = 1.67X more likely to think the guy was guilty. Seems about the same racial persuasion in both cases.

Revenant said...

when you assume you have the right to an answer from a citizen going about his or her private business and threaten them if they don't give it to you, you are in the wrong. You are the aggressor, the terrorizer, the brute, the loudmouth troublemaking asshole who usually ends up like Zimmerman

You certainly have an active fantasy life.

The only part of your scenario that matches known facts about this one is the word "Zimmerman". Everything else -- the questioning, the threatening, the aggression, etc -- is stuff you made up.

~N. said...

@Revenant

I'm addressing Ken's remark and the tone with which he wrote it.

He "challenges" anyone on his street...?

_His_ street? Does he have a deed to that? It's not his street. It's a street upon which he may own or rent some property, but it's not his street, and he has no right to assume authority over other citizens should they choose to walk down it.

His language, his tone and his attitude add up to the usual douche-y asshole loudmouth.

Also, he wasn't on those planes. He has no idea what the passengers were up against -- remember, the terrorists were already in the cockpits and already had flight personnel in their control.

But, no, if only big, brave Ken were there, no plane would have gone down on 9/11.

Fuck him.

Fifty bucks says he pees himself if so much as a Bichon Frise yaps in his direction.

Icepick said...

Yes, I do challenge anyone on my street I don't know. I want to know why they are here and what they want.

Wow, you must be the shittiest neighbor ever.

"What are you DOING ON MY STREET,ASSHOLE??!"

Mother pushing baby in stroller: "Taking baby for a walk?"

"LYING BITCH! DIE! DIE! DIE!" Unloads two clips into the woman and one into the baby.

What a fucking miserable way to live. And frankly I don't believe you. If you were that big an asshole you'd be dead or in jail by now. Alternately you live in some nice neighborhood in Utah.

Not to mention, no one said don't defend your home. But Zimmerman was defending public sidewalk, which Martin also had a right to walk upon.

Seriously, are you really advocating shooting all strangers if they don't answer your dumb-assed self when you interogate them? You realize they've got a right to tell you to go fuck yourtself with a cactus and then otherwise ignore you, yes?

Bruce Hayden said...

So Zimmerman needs to be arrested just like all other stupid murders are arrested. On the facts he fits Manslaughter or negligent homocide.

But he is not a police officer, unless the local Boss Hog running this rural county deems him one retroactively.


Not apparently in Florida. The self-defense laws there apparently require that there be probable cause that the killing was not in self defense before an arrest can be made. Someone last night moaned that this turns the normal law of affirmative defenses on its head - where the person claiming such has the obligation to bring forward evidence to show such, and if they don't the affirmative defense fails.

But, in this case, it does not appear that preponderance of the evidence does not yet support a negation of the self-defense defense/excuse, and so, Zimmerman cannot legally be arrested.

Think of it this way, let us suppose there there is 1/3 of the evidence in favor of self-defense, 1/3 against, and 1/3 indeterminate. In some states, the cops could arrest. But not, apparently, in Florida, where there would have to be a preponderance of the evidence against self-defense, and, in my hypothetical, only 1/3 of it was against self-defense, not the required 50.00001%.

Something like that, and I don't claim to be an expert on self-defense, nor the laws of Florida.

Icepick said...

Now people like icepick are trying to say walking around your own neighborhood helping to make is safe is borderline criminal.

Wow, DADvocate, you are either stupid or a lying sack of shit, or both. Nowhere have I said that Zimmerman shouldn't have been looking out for his neighbors. At no point did I say he didn't have a right to walk around. I did say that following someone you think is armed, dangerous and on drugs AND KNOWS WHWERE YOU ARE is stupid. It IS stupid. But then, given that you are a total blowhared and an idiot, you wouldn't get that. What if Martin HAD been packing, and because Zimmerman starts following him Martin starts shooting up that place. That puts others at risk as well, and unnecessarily.

Zimmerman did something stupid and unnecessary after having done every thing else correctly. But morons can't acknowledge any actual nuance. It would require a few function brain cells with actual working synapses between them....

bagoh20 said...

The Bichon Frise can be a bitch at times. I'd pee too.

Bruce Hayden said...

What will be interesting though with AG Holder (and his boss) jumping into the fray, is the question of whether the feds can arrest Zimmerman, even if the state cannot.

Now, except in rare circumstances, the feds cannot prosecute for murder. BUT, they can, and often have in the past, turned a murder, that they cannot prosecute, into a civil rights violation case.

That said, I do not believe, right now, that Holder would do that, absent something a lot more egregious at the state and local level. The reason is that he is the most racist AG in probably more than a half a century. The NBP were let off, after stipulating to their voter intimidation. And, most of the civil rights litigation, including that of state reapportionment, has been racially based.

So, if Holder did try to get the DoJ involved, I think that his involvement would be highly suspect, esp. given his own race, the race of his boss, and the race of the decedent.

Big Mike said...

Trial by media has a long and dishonorable tradition in the United States. Sam Sheppard, the Duke lacrosse players, Richard Jewell, Lindy Chamberlain down in Australia, and on and on. I don't think that having 52% of the people surveyed are "not sure" is something to cheer about. The 33% are the cause for concern.

The more that comes out about this case the more likely it seems that Zimmerman really was defending himself, but if I was on the jury I'd like to see the witnesses in the box, giving their evidence. Only then do you have the remotest clue as to who's lying and what the real story is.

Icepick said...

And if you "challenge" someone who happens to be in your neighborhood on perfectly legitimate business that has nothing to do with you, and they choose to exercise their right not to tell you about it, do you murder them?

No he wouldn't, because he's a blowhard and far more of a pussy than those he's complaining about. If he were really as much of an asshole as he says (and as much of an idiot as he demostrates) he'd already be dead or in jail.

Bruce Hayden said...

One other thought here, and that is about the politics.

The Obama Administration, CBC, etc. are playing the race card big time. Poor innocent black boy killed by a white, and the cops aren't even going to arrest him.

BUT, it isn't just a black/white issue, but also involves Hispanics. Hispanics had supported GWB fairly well against John Kerry in 2004, but a big chunk of them swung behind Obama in 2008. They seem to be swinging back to the center, and their vote may be vulnerable to the Republicans. Meanwhile, the Black community is going to, again, probably vote for Obama. The only question really is their turnout.

I frankly don't think that this will help Obama one bit with the critical Hispanic vote, and may hurt it significantly.

We shall see.

jeff said...

""Wow, you must be the shittiest neighbor ever.

"What are you DOING ON MY STREET,ASSHOLE??!"

Mother pushing baby in stroller: "Taking baby for a walk?"

"LYING BITCH! DIE! DIE! DIE!" Unloads two clips into the woman and one into the baby.

What a fucking miserable way to live. And frankly I don't believe you. If you were that big an asshole you'd be dead or in jail by now. Alternately you live in some nice neighborhood in Utah."


:Wow, DADvocate, you are either stupid or a lying sack of shit, or both. Nowhere have I said that Zimmerman shouldn't have been looking out for his neighbors. At no point did I say he didn't have a right to walk around."

Right DaDvacate is the stupid lying sac of shit. HE'S the one exaggerating to a lunatic level the actions of others. It must be nice living in your delusional world.

Cedarford said...

Kev said...
(the other kev)

The only opinion that should count -ever-should be that of a jury.

===================
That is the garbage line tossed by people that think any accusation of criminal conduct must go to a jury, since juries are all wise in determining innocence or guilt...and the legal system you would be caught up in for years until "The Wise Verdict Was Rendered" is hassle free and cost-free.

Truth is if you are innocent or overcharged and a jury fixes it, if you work for a living you are still left with years of your life ruined from fighting the charges and out massive sums of money for bloodsucking lawyers.

That is why 99.8% of charges and accusations of criminal misconduct are resolved, even disposed of, before a "Formal Trial in Our Majestic Courts".

And still, we have stupid people that insist that "only a jury and a roomful of lawyers can decide!" if "whatever happened" was exonerable, or a violation of law or an act of war...

They say it when they are blubbering for the precious rights of Anwar al-Awlaki, or demanding the Duke Lacrosse players face a jury regardless of everyone knowing the whore involved, Crystal Mangum, was lying her ass off.

Revenant said...

Bruce,

You are confusing probable cause with preponderance of evidence. The latter is the 50%+1 standard. The former is a fuzzier standard that basically boils down to "you have a good reason to believe it is true".

E.g., if cops see you shove a baggie a of a green leafy substance into your pocket, that's probable cause to search you for drugs -- even though there isn't anywhere NEAR 50% certainty that the green leafy substance is an illegal drug.

Based on the latest leaks, it seems the police felt they had probable cause (true) but the DA felt there was no way of reaching proof beyond a reasonable doubt (also true).

Cedarford said...

I also have a real problem with the "pussy brigade" that say butt out of anything you see happening in your neighborhood, mind your own business, don't get involved...let the Heroes of the police force protect things..

I would rather have Zimmerman living next door to me than Trayvon...expecially knowing that in Zimmerman's neighborhood, there have been 14 burglaries with young black males suspected...Zimmerman helped stop one break-in in progress by calling police and keeping an eye on the house involved until police arrived.

And Trayvon Martin was caught with 50 pieces of ladies jewelry and burglary tools down in Miami..

===========
This is also a return to the black activist, liberal, and progressive Jewish media mindset that incidents like this must be exploited to educate the public. To further the "narrative" (1)That owning firearms is bad, leads to trouble, and should be illegal. (2) That profiling young black men in hoodies outside their turf is "racist", since black males are unique victims of persecution. (3) And that neighborhood watch programs are de facto vigilantism that usurps the role of government employees that are suppposed to have a monopoly on protecting the public. Only fools and cop wannabes join such vigilante groups.

Jay said...

traditionalguy said...
@Jay... Impersonating a police officer has big problems for everyone. The 911 operators are police in most places.


Whatever.
It isn't a lawful order.

But what do you care, idiot? You're saying the police are the cover up. So why should someone listen to the police?

Logic much?

Peter said...

Via Facebook, a possible answer to the question of why Hispanic groups haven't come to George Zimmerman's defense:

Because they're ashamed he let this skinny black guy without a gun get the jump on him. I'm not kidding about this. The guy even screamed for help. Latinos want nothing to do with a big soft pussy like that.

Jay said...

traditionalguy said...
@Jay... Impersonating a police officer has big problems for everyone.


Nobody impersonated a police officer.

traditionalguy said...
@Jay...I can always get more ignorant.


Um, not really, no.

You've done a fantastic job of making a complete fool of yourself.

Jay said...

traditionalguy said...


The involvement of the Police was a cover up.


After:

The Police have refused to get involved.

You're a moron.

Seriously, why are you commenting?

rcommal said...

There is now some video, reportedly recorded by a security camera at the police station, after the incident when Zimmerman was brought there.

traditionalguy said...

@ Jay... Thank you for correcting me Sir.

My moronic thoughts come to me from 41 years of experience in defense of other stupid folks that run afoul of the law.

The snafu here remains the police and DA's refual to arrest a shooter involved in an unwitnessed and seemingly unjustified killing.

My thoughts have been poorly expressed so far Sir, but they make sense to me.

Icepick added the key local news that the lead investigator who heard Zimmerman's story in a fresh and un-coached interview wrote up a manslaughter/negligent homocide request to charge. But that request was refused by a DA without experience at his job.

Sounds to me like I may have shoot a 10 ring today using only a few available pieces of info reported added to my years of moronic experiences in this arena.

Let me add that when I was age 17, and a man had followed me around like Zimmerman did to Martin, and he would not back off when I confronted him, then I would have taken him down too. I was foolish like that at that age and never contemplated backing off.

Legal Training changed my tools into words and situational tactics in place of using brute strength. But the joy of fighting an over-confident jerk has not left.

~N. said...

The video footage does not bear out the story of a beaten and battered George Zimmerman. His nose does not look broken, and there is not a drop of blood on him.

Had the police processed Zimmerman appropriately, his injuries would have been photo-documented and substantiated by medical personnel. His clothing would have been seized.

He doesn't even look all that disheveled for a guy who was supposedly jumped, thrown to the ground, beaten and bloodied, all supposedly on a wet night. Heck, he doesn't even look particularly wet.

Revenant said...

I was foolish like that at that age and never contemplated backing off.

You're lucky you never tried it on someone armed, then, because he'd have been within his legal rights to shoot you. :)

~N. said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Revenant said...

The video footage does not bear out the story of a beaten and battered George Zimmerman. His nose does not look broken, and there is not a drop of blood on him.

He was tended by paramedics before being brought over. You can see the wound on the back of his head, it just isn't obvious since it has been cleaned.

Presumably the paramedics are part of the vast white-wing conspiracy too, I dunno.

~N. said...

Hmmm...let's try that again...

Surveillance Video

~N. said...

How about the broken nose?

He may have a tiny scratch on his head (he does shave his head, obviously), but he sure as heck doesn't have a broken nose.

traditionalguy said...

Rev... No mas, man. I never win an argument with you.

But let me suggest that the guy I would have taken down when I was age 17 would never gotten the chance to draw a firearm, unless I let him go, which may have been Trayvon's mistake.

This smells like an intentuonal murder to me, even if the intent was formed in a few seconds after a humiliated Watch Captain was released after being taught a lesson by a superior man.

Gene said...

In regard the the notion that this incident will "never see the inside of a courtroom," I would agree but for Eric Holder being the Attorney General. No matter what a state court decides Holder will almost certainly put Zimmerman on trial for violations of Martin's civil rights.

If it is established that Zimmerman called Martin a "coon" his goose is cooked. In some circles, a racial epithet is more insulting than a bullet to the chest.

This is what happened in the Duke University lacrosse case. Even after it was clear that the Crystal Mangum hadn't been raped, the Duke president still wanted to throw the team under the bus because of one player's racial taunt ("Thank your grandfather for my cotton shirt.")

Revenant said...

even if the intent was formed in a few seconds after a humiliated Watch Captain was released after being taught a lesson by a superior man.

Yeah, maybe. Or maybe a teenaged wanna-be thug thought he'd teach someone a lesson, and ended up learning one of his own a little too late to do him any good.

Who knows? We don't even know whether or not Martin really was high and/or casing houses (both plausible if the leaks related to his suspension were true) or if he was just out for an innocent walk (as his friends and family claim).

My impression from the 911 tape was that Zimmerman was nervous, had lost sight of Martin, and was going to wait for the police to get there. That meshes well with his version of the story.

Revenant said...

How about the broken nose?

You watch too many movies. Most broken noses aren't visually obvious.

traditionalguy said...

Thanks ~N~... That video shows no head wounds nor even any bandaids. His nose is straight rather than croked and it has no cotton plugs stuffed up his nostrils. There is no blood on his shirt either.

That man was not treated for a broken nose or a head wound, even if he claims he changed shirts.

An actually broken nose bleeds profusely since the nose is full of blood vessels that are usually cut by the broken carteledge we call our nose. When it heals it is often a crooked boxer's nose, and if the cartelege also pierced the skin from inside, it makes a scar for life.

Not drowning in your own blood while holding your head back and applying a cold towells is the biggest risk faced with a newly smashed/broken nose. The medics will stuff white cotten plugs up both nostrils to aid in clotting. Breathing through the mouth is all you can do for several days.

But that is only based my experience.

DADvocate said...

Wow, DADvocate, you are either stupid or a lying sack of shit, or both. Nowhere have I said that Zimmerman shouldn't have been looking out for his neighbors.

You said he should have stayed in his truck. How's he going to look out for his neighbors there? Maybe you need a lesson in logistics, dumb ass. Ever heard of Kitty Genovese? Check her out? That's what happens when people act as you suggest they should, dumb ass.

While you're at it, check out the kidnapping, rape, torture and murders of Channon Gail Christian and Hugh Christopher Newsom, Jr. in Knoxville a few years ago. (They did stay in their vehicle.) Then ask yourself why their case got no where near the national coverage Trayvon Martin's getting. Could it be because it doesn't fit the narrative of you and the other leftie hate mongers?

roesch/voltaire said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
roesch/voltaire said...

So many holes in Zimmerman's story beside the lack of blood and bruises seen in the police tape. His claim that there was a fight over his drawn gun, leads one to ask why was it drawn and when because it doesn't fit his story that he had turned his back and was knocked to the ground, yet somehow was next seen standing over the body-- or that the screams stopped after the shot, not before as they would have if they were from Zimmerman. While folks like to bring up Trayvon's school suspension to doubt his character, in fair turn about, it must be noted that Zimmerman has a record of violence including against police officers, which makes me wonder at least why he was given a gun permit given and not charge in court. I don't think one should take a poll on this, but I do think it is a matter of justice that needs to be served.

William said...

Trayvon is innocent and dead. Zimmerman shot him. I don't think there's any way Zimmerman walks on this. He's no Ray Lewis......Some years back I was in a Blockbuster near Harlem. A patron thought the security guard was following him too closely. He yelled this at the security guard and then hit him. The guard went down, and the patron walked out of the store.....I wasn't following the incident prior to the yelling. Perhaps the security guard was too officious. But this much I know. You can only throw so many punches like that before something very bad happens to you......I don't know the circumstances of this incident, but Trayvon is dead and Zimmerman's life is ruined. There are no winners, and everyone seems to be drawing the wrong moral from this story.

Revenant said...

His claim that there was a fight over his drawn gun, leads one to ask why was it drawn and when because it doesn't fit his story that he had turned his back and was knocked to the ground

First of all, we haven't heard "his story". We've heard second-hand accounts of it. Secondly, that account is this:

the 17-year-old appeared from nowhere and jumped [Zimmerman] from behind, then punched him in the face, breaking his nose and dropping him to the ground, and banged his head repeatedly on the pavement

Anywhere in there he would have had a good reason to draw his gun in self-defense. That doesn't make his story true, obviously, but there's no inconsistency.

yet somehow was next seen standing over the body

He was supposedly next seen yelling for help while Martin beat on him.

or that the screams stopped after the shot

Um, duh? Obviously Zimmerman isn't going to yell "help, save me from the dead guy" and obviously a dead guy isn't going to yell -- so no matter who was yelling before the shots, the yelling would have stopped after.

not before as they would have if they were from Zimmerman.

If Zimmerman was yelling for help, why would he have stopped yelling *before* the shot? Up until the point of impact Martin would presumably still have been dangerous.

DADvocate said...

Watching the ABC video of Zimmerman I have questions. What time was the video, i.e. what time did Zimmerman arrive at the police station? It's hard to imagine that a surveillance camera at the police station didn't have a time and date stamp on the video. Did ABC remove it? ABC obviously doctored the video some, to put their logo and text on it if nothing else.

Was Zimmerman able to get his wounds treated and change clothes before arriving at the station? Or, is the video as damning as it looks? I've searched for a time line, but can't find one with any detail. I ask these questions because I don't trust ABC, NBC, CBS, etc to give us accurate information, to be intelligent enough to recognize significant facts, or fair enough to present them impartially.

DADvocate said...

50 seconds into the video, one of the officers looks at the back of Zimmerman's head. Why?

bagoh20 said...

"This smells like an intentuonal murder to me, even if the intent was formed in a few seconds after a humiliated Watch Captain was released after being taught a lesson by a superior man. "

Unlikely. I heard the tape, and he's yelling for help right up till the shot. No time for that scenario.

rcommal said...

Was Zimmerman able to get his wounds treated and change clothes before arriving at the station?

OK. This one I just can't let pass.

Are you, DADvocate, out of your mind?

Even if that were so, that Zimmerman not only got treated but also *got.to.change.his.clothes.* [and nowhere was that noted, much less acknowledged, officially] do you actually think that--in particular the part about being able to change one's clothes--this is the NORM of circumstances in shooting incidences?

You surely must be kidding. Christ, it shouldn't even take a former cop-beat reporter to know that this doesn't pass the laugh test.

W.T.F.

Craig said...

Any truth to the rumor that the JetBlue pilot who went berserk on that flight out of Vegas was actually Hunter Thompson?

bagoh20 said...

On the video:

At :50, one officer clearly takes the time to examine the back of Zimmerman's head for a few seconds.

At 1:03 - 1:07 when Zimmerman turns away, it looks to me like there is a gash in the back of his head. It's hard to see for sure, but since the cops said in their report that his head was cut, and then this cop clearly checks it out, I think it was cut.

I don't know why people would dispute that he was on the ground with Martin on top. The cops reported it. multiple witnesses reported it, including live when it was happening on the 911 tapes.

If you are disputing this point, you are not open to the evidence and have already made up your mind regardless. So what does that say about your opinion on the rest of it?

leslyn said...

I am relaying primarily Icepick's account of 2:26 p.m. as most credible in terms of the amount of detail provided, but will refer to the quote just above for brevity, where it doesn't appear to differ in any material respect from Icepick's.

the 17-year-old appeared from nowhere and jumpe[Zimmerman] from behind, then punched him in the face, breaking his nose and dropping him to the ground, and banged his head repeatedly on the pavement.

Anywhere in there he would have had a good reason to draw his gun in self-defense. That doesn't make his story true, obviously, but there's no inconsistency.
(Emphasis added.

As I understand was in the police report, Z was found by the police lying on his back, with a bloody nose. M was dead of a gunshot wound from Z's gun.

I would like to know if Z claims he was jumped, AND punched in the nose, AND brought to the ground from behind. That would be physically difficult and implausible for M to do. Z would also have dirt and grass on the front of his clothes instead of on the back, as the police report states.

Dirt and grass on Z's back and a bloody nose is consistent with Z facing M. So if Z was facing M, when and how did that happen? How much of Z's encounter with M was actually face to face?

I'd also like to know the angle of entry of M's bullet wound. Did it demonstrate that Z was lying on the ground, where he could be considered more vulnerable? Or was it straight on, face-to-face? M had no weapon, so if it was straight on, face-to-face and upright, Z shot an unarmed man. (Was this before Z claims to have been jumped from behind?) Or, if Z claims that he shot M while M was on top of of Z on the ground, where is M's blood on Z's clothes? And even in that case, the bullet would almost certainly have had an acute angle of entry.

Finally, what condition was Z in when he was found by the police lying on his back on the ground? Was he unconscious? Dazed? Coherent? His mental state is directly relevant to to Z's story.

If he was coherent, did he attempt to render aid to M? If not, why not? Z had the gun and M was shot and weaponless.

These questions bother me. They need answers. Particularly bothersome is the notion that Z was following M, but somehow M got behind Z and jumped him, bringing Z to the ground--but Z also got punched in the nose and was found on his back. It's implausible to have the story both ways.

We can't examine the plausibility of M's story because, of course, M is dead.

rcommal said...

OK, then, let's go with DADvocate's proposal. I mean, what the hell, why not. Zimmerman got to get his injuries treated, and then got to change his clothes, prior to his arrival at the station in handcuffs. Fine. At some point the clothes he was wearing must have been collected by authorities. And at some point that information, that such a thing happened, will become available. And at either the same point, or a different one, information about the state of those clothes might become available. It's still a matter of being in a state of "wait and see" and what comes next. Only with more excitement, if you're a DADvocate sort, with all the penetrating insights that guarantees.

leslyn said...

Relevant said,

"We don't even know whether or not Martin really was high...."

Surely you mean to say we don't know that about Zimmerman.

rcommal said...

I've seen examples of the aftermath of a head being "banged repeatedly against" something.

I'm wondering: Who else here has?

bagoh20 said...

I would expect that when a man is attacked from behind they usually end up face to face within a second. The one being attacked usually turns immediately.

A man can easily punch another man in the face and nose while standing, falling, or both lying on the ground. It could have happened in any of those positions immediately after Zimmerman is attacked and turns to face him.

On the 911 tape, you can clearly hear the screams for help right up until the shot, and the calling party is saying they are on the ground at the time.

It's all plausibly fits Zimmerman story of self defense, and better than any alternative I've heard so far. Still could have been different, but this all sounds normal to me.

And I would expect that Zimmerman's wounds were at least whipped clean of blood before getting to the station, and he could have grass stains on his clothes that are just not easy to see in the video.

I'm not claiming this is all true, just entirely possible without much imagination required.

bagoh20 said...

"I'm wondering: Who else here has?"

I've been in plenty of fights. I've had my nose broken just like this from a fist, and I've seen lots of heads pounded on the ground. There is no consistency to the amount of bleeding with either. It tells us nothing for sure that he had no visible blood in the video. We have the cops report, and there had to be people who saw him right after the cops got there, so his condition after the shooting has to be verifiable by many.

bagoh20 said...

I have to believe that the cops took photos at the scene of a shooting death. If not, then they are idiots. Everyone of them had a cell phone for sure.

leslyn said...

bagoh20 said,

"I would expect that when a man is attacked from behind they usually end up face to face within a second. The one being attacked usually turns immediately."

No, not in my experience. The surprise and coinciding disorientation gives the first wave of action to the jumper. It's not like in the movies, or even like we would think ourselves to be.

Of course, though, Z could have turned around before falling to the ground. For example, one has a better chance of remaining upright if jumped from behind by a smaller or weaker person.

That would be an important fact and I would expect it to come out with significance--at some point.

Revenant said...

Even if that were so, that Zimmerman not only got treated but also *got.to.change.his.clothes.*

"Not only got treated"?

Are you under the impression that allowing wounded people to receive medical attention is something police only deign to do out of the kindness of their hearts? Even if he was under arrest (which he wasn't), they would be asking for a peach of a lawsuit if they forbade him from receiving medical attention.

As for letting him change -- yes, that's normal. If he keeps wearing the clothes their value as evidence degrades. Police prefer to collect evidence as soon as possible, then seal it for later use. I don't know if they collected his old shirt in this case, but that would have been a lot smarter than marching him around the police station still wearing it.

Revenant said...

The surprise and coinciding disorientation gives the first wave of action to the jumper.

Admittedly we're relying on second-hand accounts, but all the reports I've seen cite Zimmerman as saying he exchanged words with Martin, then Martin punched him in the nose and knocked him down.

I don't know where the "attacked from behind" meme came from.

leslyn said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
rcommal said...

Are you under the impression that allowing wounded people to receive medical attention is something police only deign to do out of the kindness of their hearts?

No.

And I addressed the second paragraph as well, Rev.

rcommal said...

And Rev, please note that part of the problem is that we don't know even the rudimentary of sequence of events of how Zimmerman was handled, from a police report standpoint. (Or, at least, I don't, and I've yet to see evidence of anyone else knowing either, here, including you, with all due respect, and I mean that sincerely.) Believe it or not, in my time, I saw many, in various permutations. I don't know exactly what happened in this case, and nor do you, and nor does anyone else. That said, I don't apologize for finding some things hinky--nor for taking some standard linguistic characterizations in crime cases (for just one example, "banged repeatedly against") with a large grain of skeptical salt. Do I need to tell you why in the general (and even legal) sense?

DADvocate said...

This is how facts are missed, someone thinks they are so smart they don't ask the question, dumb ass.

Bruce Hayden said...

You are confusing probable cause with preponderance of evidence. The latter is the 50%+1 standard. The former is a fuzzier standard that basically boils down to "you have a good reason to believe it is true".

And, it requires that it be at least 50%+ likely. You are correct that it is not, precisely, the preponderance of the evidence standard, and that it is fuzzy. But, it still comes down to that until the police have reason to believe that it is more likely than not that the person committed a crime, they cannot arrest him, because they do not have probable cause.

E.g., if cops see you shove a baggie a of a green leafy substance into your pocket, that's probable cause to search you for drugs -- even though there isn't anywhere NEAR 50% certainty that the green leafy substance is an illegal drug.

Not really a good example. First, the green leafy substance being put into your pocket probably would be sufficient to justify a search (but, not an arrest). 9 times out of 10, the green leafy substance is pot. Secondly, even the search may be suspect, so, the cops would likely first ask him what is in his pockets, and if he will please empty them out. All, in a command voice, so the less prepared will mistake the request for an order. Willingly doing what the cops want does not require probable case. If that fails, then they would likely do a Terry Stop search, for their own safety, of course, patting down the suspect for weapons, and just happening to feel the drugs in his pocket. That still may not get what they want. Esp. now that some courts are now saying that feeling a small baggy of pot in a suspect's pockets is unlikely to be mistaken for a weapon. Still, it gives them an excuse to ask what that lump is in his pocket, and if they can verify that.

Based on the latest leaks, it seems the police felt they had probable cause (true) but the DA felt there was no way of reaching proof beyond a reasonable doubt (also true).

So, are you suggesting that the police arrest the guy, and then release him immediately? After a couple of hours?

If the DA doesn't think that he can get a conviction, then he may not ethically be able prosecute the case. Or maybe even ask to hold him for trial or require bail.

Let me add that many cops seem to have a tendency to arrest first, and then try to justify the probable cause later. This is one of those No harm, No foul, sort of things. There is usually little downside for the cops for being overly zealous in arresting people.

The reality is that no one here really knows yet what really happened. Some here claim to, and are marshaling all they data that they can to make their cases.

rcommal said...

Bagoh20: Yes, it cuts both ways. Exactly. That's why assumptions are problematic.

Hayden: Truer words than your last paragraph cannot be spoken.

Kirk Parker said...

tradguy,
"The 911 operators are police in most places."

Sure, if by "most" you mean "hardly any".

And Icepick, even if the operator were a sworn officer, so what? Police in America aren't tyrants who get to order people around based on their whims and preferences, over the phone no less!

~N. said...

How do we know how Zimmerman got that itty bitty boo-boo on the back of his head? It sure as heck wasn't from having his head repeatedly pounded against the pavement.

I've raised five kids and I've sat in the emergency room with kids bleeding every which way from skateboarding falls, rugby injuries, etc. Head wounds bleed like the dickens.

My son had a broken nose from a very brief bar brawl. It was obvious. He may not have looked like he went all 12 rounds with whoever the heavyweight boxing champ is these days, but it was clearly broken, he was clearly in pain.

The police don't seem to have properly investigated the incident. There doesn't seem to be any forensic evidence regarding gunshot trajectory, gunpowder residue, bloodstains on Zimmerman, etc. These things could make or break Zimmerman's story. Why these things were never documented is the big question -- what kind of crappy protocol does this pack of Keystone Cops have in place that cops on the scene can decide whether or not they'll bother with gathering evidence??

Jay said...

I don't know where the "attacked from behind" meme came from.



It is what Zimmerman told the police.

Jay said...

aditionalguy said...
@ Jay... Thank you for correcting me Sir.

My moronic thoughts come to me from 41 years of experience in defense of other stupid folks that run afoul of the law.



Nice attempt at argument by authority.

The snafu here remains the police and DA's refual to arrest a shooter involved in an unwitnessed and seemingly unjustified killing.


Um, there are two, that would be more than 1, witnesses who told police Martin was on top of Zimmerman beating him.

If by that you mean "unwitnessed" circle back to my comments above regarding your incoherence.

"Unjustified" follows that same path.

Your comments are embarrassing on a level that is tragic.


Which of course is because you're ignoring facts and quite frankly, incoherent.

Jay said...

Icepick added the key local news that the lead investigator who heard Zimmerman's story in a fresh and un-coached interview wrote up a manslaughter/negligent homocide request to charge. But that request was refused by a DA without experience at his job.


er, huh?

Which DA has no "experience at his job"?

Give us a name, clown.

Also note:
A source with knowledge of the investigation into the shooting of Trayvon Martin tells theGrio that it was then Sanford police chief Bill Lee, along with Capt. Robert O'Connor, the investigations supervisor, who made the decision to release George Zimmerman on the night of February 26th, after consulting with State Attorney Norman Wolfinger -- in person.


Don't worry Mr 41 year defense attorney, you have an emotional investment in a meme.

Facts aren't something you're interested in.

traditionalguy said...

@Jay... Yes, experience helps cut through the smoke and focus on the relevant issues. That is using a skill, it is not using an argument from authority.

This cover up's smoke making machinery continues to pump out one "fact" after another that a day later we are told is no longer operative.

Cover up stories need fine tuning. When the victim's school suspension history did not distract the hearers enough, they tried the head beaten into the concrete and the nose broken defense. Then another tape surfaces, and the cover up has to create better tales about the invisible traumas being erased by EMT guys. Wait a day and that tale will no longer be operative.

What Zimmerman and his protectors wont admit is that this was probably a revenge killing over the embarrassment done to The Famous Captain of the Neighborhood Watch when he was overcome by a suspicious burglar and had to scream out in terror because the black teenager he was stalking dared to knock him down.

My repeat of a story that a "new to the job assistant DA made a decision to drop charges as an unwinnable case", was the NPR's story as of 5:00PM last night. No names were given.

Later the tale became that the police investigator who wrote up the charges did not mean a word of it and he really wanted to drop the case, so he only phoned the asssistant DA to request a CYA opinion for cutting Zimmerman lose.

Using the latest "facts" being issued by the cover up as a given does not bother me. If the story tellers suddenly want to tell new and improved versions, the blame falls on them for telling a false story the yesterday. It is not on me for taking them at their word in version 1, to be followed by version 2, to be followed by version 3. We simply ask , "were you telling the truth this time or those other times?"

And a good advocate always uses his emotions to better convey his arguments. That is why he does thankless jobs...he believes in his clients. If that surprises you, then you need to meet a better class of lawyers.

damikesc said...

Obama's campaign is blaming Republicans for politicizing this. He clearly knows his base is too moronic to know anything.

Scott M said...

Obama's campaign is blaming Republicans for politicizing this. He clearly knows his base is too moronic to know anything.

Have you got a link to something like that? It would be singularly stupid given POTUS' "son" comments, Jackson/Sharpton, the song that was done, Hoodies in Congress, Spike Lee's fuck up, etc, etc ad infinitum.

Jay said...

traditionalguy said...
@Jay... Yes, experience helps cut through the smoke and focus on the relevant issues


Hyesterical. Such as:

My repeat of a story that a "new to the job assistant DA made a decision to drop charges as an unwinnable case", was the NPR's story as of 5:00PM last night. No names were given.



That is beyond comical.

I gave you the name of the prosectuor.

Now go tell me how much experience he has.

Thanks in advance.

Jay said...

This cover up's smoke making machinery continues to pump out one "fact" after another that a day later we are told is no longer operative.


Really? Such as?
Name one example of this.
Just one. Oh wait, you ineptly tried to do so.

Later the tale became that the police investigator who wrote up the charges did not mean a word of it and he really wanted to drop the case, so he only phoned the asssistant DA to request a CYA opinion for cutting Zimmerman lose.


That is a blatant lie.

Here is a link refuting your lie:


Chris Serino, the lead homicide detective with the Sanford Police Department, wanted George Zimmerman arrested and charged for killing Florida teen Trayvon Martin, the night of the tragic incident.

According to ABC News, Serino “expressed doubt” regarding Zimmerman's explanation regarding the shooting and his self-defense claim. Thus, the investigator wanted Zimmerman arrested and charged with manslaughter, but the office of the Florida State Attorney's Office disagreed, says the report.




The only person changing facts is you.

Jay said...

It is not on me for taking them at their word in version 1, to be followed by version 2, to be followed by version 3. We simply ask , "were you telling the truth this time or those other times?"


Except you have no examples of this.

None at all.

So why are you believing things that aren't true?
Oh, you have an emotional investment in a meme.

Facts aren't something you're interested in.

traditionalguy said...

@Jay...The 911 call audio tape and the Police Station videotape are the only FACTS yet known.

All the rest of the tales are only biased memories of interested parties quoting what they remember that he said or she said.

A careful sifting of the evidence with cross examination and personal presence of the persons under oath is what we call a TRIAL.

If you want facts, then you will have to handle all of the uncertainty of a trial with 12 jurors.

So I take it that you want a trial. And that means we have been in agreement all of the time.

Revenant said...

It is what Zimmerman told the police.

Link, please?

Jay said...

traditionalguy said...
@Jay...The 911 call audio tape and the Police Station videotape are the only FACTS yet known.




Um, witness statements are facts.

Jay said...

Reverent,

Zimmerman said he was approached from behind.

Not attacked from behind.

My error.

Revenant said...

A careful sifting of the evidence with cross examination and personal presence of the persons under oath is what we call a TRIAL.

And you aren't supposed to have a trial unless you think you can prove beyond a reasonable doubt that the accused committed the crime.

Based on what is known, it can't even honestly be said that Zimmerman *probably* committed a crime. Having a trial would be wrong.

eh930 said...

Well wait one minute. I have a question. What about the age gap? if two men get into a fight willing, as it seems both did. George Zimmerman wanted to CONFRONT him (whether or not he was aggressive in doing so, it's clear that he pursued him to ask a question), and if the allegations of Martin fighting back are true, they were both engaged in a willing "fight". Now Zimmerman is over 18, Treyvon is under 18, so that makes Zimmerman responsible, right? Because whether or not they were BOTH willing participants, Zimmerman is over 18. And I don't care if "he didn't know how old Martin was" because that doesn't matter in any other charge in history. If you attack a minor, you attack a minor, period. And you pay the price. For the record anyway, Trayvon had a baby-face, he looked way younger than 18.

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