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For Miss Pennsylvania Sheena Monnin, I suppose being criticized for simple jealousy is more flattering than being criticized for being an anti-trans bigot.
I think they should allow fembots to compete.I say that with all due maturity.
Media Matters swore that Progressives criticize women for their ideas and not their looks.My mind is blown by this inconsistency.
You know, I can try and try and try, but there's simply no way that I can bring myself to care what the rules are in a beauty pagent. Isn't the difference between Ms. USA and Ms. America that one will allow plastic surgery, and the other won't? (I might be completely wrong on that, but I seem to recall that the Trump one allows something more *fake* or flashy or something then the non-Trump one.)
Anti tranny bigot? Really? Does anybody take trannyism seriously?
Does anybody take trannyism seriouslyThe modern world is a delightful fascinating place. You should check it out sometime.
The straight chicks are just worried that the trannies will dominate the blowjob competition.Up your games, ladies!
I find myself thinking of the Scalia dissent in the ADA golf case - "What is golf?" What is the point of the Ms. USA pagent? It's a game, and the rules are, by their nature, arbitrary. They can be whatever they want to be, because the only point of the pagent is to win based on whatever the rules are. Compete on one basis, compete on another, whatever. If you don't like it, start another competition to compete on what you want to compete on.
Yes, boys and girls playing make believe is quite a concern, Andy.
Jenna Talackova won Miss Congenitality, and not a beauty prize--deservedly so.
I'm impressed with Miss Monnin's courage to defy progressive corruption.It's unfortunate that Miss Rhode Island did not distinguish between tolerance and normalization. Her position serves neither society nor humanity well. It encourages evolutionary dysfunction.There is a reason why a society would elect to honor the beauty and feminine qualities of its women. It is a matter principally concerned with evolutionary fitness is wholly practical.There is no legitimate reason to normalize individual confusion. As individuals they can be productive members of society; but, their behavior, whether born of natural causes or freewill, has no redeeming value to either society or humanity.
It's a game, and the rules are, by their nature, arbitrary.That's true, until someone wants to force you to live acording to their belief system. Then the game becomes a public accommodation, like a restaurant or taxi or plane and, as such, can't just be for fun anymore since somehow it becomes a moral statement.It's goofy, but that's the modern world. Actually, it's the post-modern world. The modern world has logic.
The modern world is a delightful fascinating place. You should check it out sometime.Yes, watching people play "Let's PRETEND!" is always fascinating.
Who was it that said ridicule is the most powerful force anywhere?
If you've read Think Progress much at all, you can see why they'd find that comment so clever as to make it top-rated.
Was this something about Rachel Maddow? I didn't follow the link.
Many intelligent women deride beauty pageants as archaic, vestigial rites of a bye-gone era. How else to explain their hostility towards Sarah Palin so clearly on display in 2008? I asked Carol Herman why that was so once but she repeatedly declined to answer.
Thank you, Freeman, for reading Think Progress, so we don't have to!
@Dan--Whoever it was, it wasn't Woody Allen.
I don't care if she expresses retrograde thoughts, she can eat crackers in my rack anytime!
Andy R. said... For Miss Pennsylvania Sheena Monnin, I suppose being criticized for simple jealousy is more flattering than being criticized for being an anti-trans bigot.Hahahahahaha!You never stop with the stupid.Ever.
So, now "transgenered" is a race that is capable of being "bigoted" against? When did that get voted in?If I check the chromosomes of each and every tranny in the world, they all look just like mine. Women chromosomes.....not so much. Why is this even an issue?Also, I have a vision problem. Can their be "anti-astimgmatic" bigots out there? Oooh..... I want my share of progressive sympathy and prizes, please!
Wait until the Olympics allows trans-gender competitors on women's teams.East Germany will rise again.(I don't quite get the notion of beauty contests either... how much "work" are the ladies allowed to have done?)
Liberals sure like the term butt-hurt.
Good for Ms. Pennsylvania.
Can't tell the players without a program.
I figure if a Y chromosome keeps you out of Olympic competition - and, who knows, maybe it doesn't any more - then that standard is fair in a beauty competition. The typical defender of transgender inclusion, male or female, wouldn't sleep with one for a million bucks. Why ogle a person you wouldn't touch with a ten foot pole?If one lesbian I heard speak on the topic is correct the typical transgendered male wants to date women after they change. The lesbian said just what I said - wouldn't touch one with a ten foot pole.Any critic of my views who wouldn't sleep with a surgically altered man will be discounted automatically by me as a closeted bigot.
Eventually the winner of these pageants will be the entity that best delivers the line "Equal is best."All other considerations will be deemed unenlightened.Miss IBM will win in 2019 with her rendition in Esperanto.
Considering everything about Miss Surgery has been redone, I can't say as how I blame the real girls for being miffed because they're expected to go with what Nature (not to mention Mom and Dad) gave them.Andy R. said...For Miss Pennsylvania Sheena Monnin, I suppose being criticized for simple jealousy is more flattering than being criticized for being an anti-trans bigot.No, sweetie, all she's asking for a level playing field.Y'know, equality.What you're always whining about, but wouldn't recognize if it hit you in the face? Let the other one run for Miss American Plumbing.We'll see how many people watch.
Is there a beauty pageant for the blind, because that would be awesome to judge.
"We'll see how many people watch."Probably a lot of them would.
But how many are they?
Oh no. It's the new War against Men-Women.Whose side to be on??? Hmmm.Categories are important to the administration of most civil/ social rules that cause peace and harmony.But if there are no such thing as females and there are no such thing as males, then we can all live freer...if you call that living.Reality trumps fantasy outside of Cult LaLaLand. Not that there is anything wrong with being insane.
Any reason transgendered folks can't have their own pageant?
You mean besides ratings?I suppose they could get sponsorship from the American Society of Plastic Surgeons.
So if I understand this right, the pageant requires some people to have drastic dangerous surgery in order to compete. That seems unfair to them. Why can't they compete without the surgery. You load the judges with gay men and David Beckham wins Miss America. Seems OK.
No, sweetie, all she's asking for a level playing field.What's not level? Is this a pageant that bans plastic surgery? (My googling says no.) Is that why the quitter is upset? There is no mention of plastic surgery in the eonline article linked from Think Progress.Saying "I don't want to compete against a transgender person because they have an unfair advantage from plastic surgery" is different than saying "I don't want to compete against a transgender person because I'm an anti-trans bigot."It seems to be the latter that is happening.
Awwww, someone is mad because they have no personal moral values compared to someone who was born a woman, has personal moral values and worked her way up the beauty pageant food chain and actually won the title for one of the US States. That's jealousy, and it's uuuugly."Best part? She pissed off Donald "birther" Trump.
@Andy R. - The modern world is a delightful fascinating place. You should check it out sometimeHow would you know, what with your going through life with your nose firmly planted in some guy's butt?
@Dave D. - So, now "transgenered" is a race that is capable of being "bigoted" against? When did that get voted in?Dave, at this point there is only one group that has not been voted in: white men.
Andy R., are we talking pre-op or post-op here? Because, while I have absolutely no interest in beauty pageants, an American beauty champion with a penis would be kind of odd.
C'mon, Michelle, that's for the judges to decide!We'd want unbiased judges, of course. And the only way we could be sure if they were unbiased is that they'd meet a quota of pre-op winners.Yay nondiscrimination!
paul a'barge, I am 1/32nd Ethiopian. But I look completely white. Can I be "voted in"?
Because, while I have absolutely no interest in beauty pageants, an American beauty champion with a penis would be kind of odd. I'm not sure why the status of her penis is anyone's business. Also, I don't like the idea of these Miss America/beauty pageants in the first place, but as long as they are happening then I figure there shouldn't be any discrimination. If all the bigots want to quit over that, I don't think they'll be missed.
Andy, Have you consider how you inure people to the charge of "bigotry" when you use that word to describe pretty much any instance of people maintaining distinctions that have always been quite clear?Do you really think this is a major social problem?If you're just pushing people's buttons, no problem. That's part of the Althouse experience.
re: pageant rules, must entrants be All Human?
Chip wrote: If you're just pushing people's buttons, no problem. That's part of the Althouse experience.Andy's opinions are so out there and harmful to his own causes that I figure he must be a ruse. That's why I enjoy pushing back at him.
chickelit, It also explains the hat.
Chip S. said...chickelit, It also explains the hat.Eschew askew!
I, myself, am mad because pageants are so species-ist. Who says that a dog, cat, or horse cannot be as beautiful as a human? Transexual activism is so yesterday progressive. But I try not to be too harsh because at least these trans activists are trying. It's like when I was out with my roommate's friend, and he ordered eggs benedict. Of course he ordered it with vegan Canadian bacon, a gluten-free organic English muffin, and free range no corn feed eggs, but he didn't ask about whether or not the lemons in the sauce were fair trade. Yeah, the lemons thing shows that he's sort of a regressive douche, but he swore later that he didn't know lemons were used in that sauce, so at least his heart was in the right place.
(Heh. Lemondog beat me to it.)
Andy's opinions are so out thereYou should read this New York Magazine article on transgender children. I get the impression that many of the commenters don't understand what is happening in the transgender world. At this point, opposing transgender discrimination in beauty pageants doesn't seem particularly controversial to me, but I understand how the modern world can be exciting and frightening for people living in ignorance.
Andy R: "...her penis..."Jesus Christ, I can't take it. I just can't take it.You know, it's a nice day outside. It's about 70 degrees and sunny; and I have a nice piece of beef waiting for me in the dutch oven at home, having steeped in beef stock and red wine for about 10 hours.As important a topic as this is (what Andy R likes to stuff into his squeak-hole, and why we should all care), I just don't give a fuck anymore.Andy R, people who have their genitals removed with elective surgery are in need of psychiatric help. That's not the same as being black or 1/32 Cherokee or any of those other conditions that you consider to be so debilitating that they justify a hand up or a hand-out.I'm not a bigot; you're an idiot, a dangerously stupid and callous menace, and an enabler of the mentally ill in their self-mutilation.
Andy R insisted: I'm not sure why the status of her penis is anyone's business.Just imagine the attention if it were at attention.I know that's hard for you.
The great thing about progressives, whether ahead or behind the curve, is how hungry they are to be educated.Like when my roommate's friend didn't ask about those lemons, I said, "Oh, great! Why don't you lock a poor, African farmer in your basement until he starves to death?!" And my roommate added, "Would you be fine with that because the farmer might be black?!"The friend immediately started apologizing profusely and debasing himself for his ignorance. He then asked us what links he should read. That shows a real willingness to grow, I think.
If you want to see real ugliness, look at the comboxes of the liberal blogosphere. That post is no exception.
You should read this New York Magazine article on transgender children.They do reparative surgery on children? That's horrible!And you're now talking about catering society to a subset of people even smaller than 2%.
Freeman, I think your dining partner was just playing dumb. Everyone, I mean everyone, knows there's lemon juice in hollandaise sauce. Come on.
That shows a real willingness to grow, I think.I got so tired of buying lemons I decided to grow them myself. ;)
Andy R, would you fuck a transman?
Pastafarian said... "Andy R, people who have their genitals removed with elective surgery are in need of psychiatric help."This. Surgical and chemical mutilation are not valid lifestyle choices; the people who seek them should receive help and the people who enable them should be prosecuted. Liberals are apt to wrap their preferences in an aura of inevitability; that's what the misappropriated term "progressive" is supposed to imply, that their policies are the natural culmination and capstone of everything that has happened so far, that all history is a progression toward the fulfilment of this vision. Thus, they can call those of us who oppose them by all manner of rude names and plausibly suggest that far from their own preferences being unnatural, it's those who resist who are unnatural, the heirs of Cnut, standing pointlessly and petulantly against the tide. (Another misappropriated image, by the way.) Thus, "transgender" issues were first bolted onto the LGB agenda as if they belonged there (they don't), then it was insisted that they had always been part and parcel (they weren't), and that they are inevitable (they aren't). By-and-large, the tactic works, but I don't think it will on this point; most people recognize this despicable, destructive fad for what it is, and as with abortion, I think that in a few decades, people will look back in puzzlement not that many said no but that any said yes.
I'm pretty sure, when push comes to shove (so to speak), that dearest Andy cares greatly about the status of people's penises.
Andy R, would you fuck a transman?In theory, yes. The opportunity has never presented itself, although it might soon (I hope I don't jinx it).
So I guess there won't be any more (naturally born) female athletes anymore, right?I mean, why bother trying? When Andy R gets his way, and the phrase "her penis" can be uttered without derision, lest the mockers be branded bigots...there will never be a naturally born female champion of any sport ever again, save perhaps "women's" gymnastics (already dominated not by women, but by girls).If we are simply whatever we claim we are, I hereby formally declare myself to be a disabled Hispanic/native American homosexual female. Where do I pick up my handicapped parking sticker?I'll see you ladies in the locker room.
For the life of me, I can't understand why gays of goodwill accepted or continue to accept the bizarre attempt to attach "transgender" issues to the LGB campaign, an exercise which seems like trying to saddle a horse for a canoe.
Lyssa said...I find myself thinking of the Scalia dissent in the ADA golf case - "What is golf?" What is the point of the Ms. USA pagent? It's a game, and the rules are, by their nature, arbitrary. They can be whatever they want to be, because the only point of the pagent is to win based on whatever the rules are. Compete on one basis, compete on another, whatever. If you don't like it, start another competition to compete on what you want to compete on.In that case, the rule should be that contestants must wear any former testicles as earrings.
the heirs of CnutIs that some sort of mixed-up matriarchal lineage?Educate me.
It's all about "theory" with your type, isn't it?But, as I said, when push comes to shove, things are a little different...I have no ideas why trannies are lumped in with us gays. I've always considered them defective homosexuals who couldn't accept their queerness without submitting to society's normalizing gender roles.
Appropos to something: Lola
It's all about "theory" with your type, isn't it?What's my type?The first time the opportunity for sex with a transman presents itself, I'll be sure to let you know what happens.
The first time the opportunity for sex with a transman presents itself, I'll be sure to let you know what happens.Epic disappointment all around, would be my guess.
Someone is extra quite contrary today. I wonder if it's Walker's fault.
So now the topic is "Whose squeak-hole Andy R chooses to stick his dick into, and why we should care."The squick factor on this thread just went up to 11. I think I'll try to find one less foul.
I accidentally stumbled across some photos of Miss Pennsylvania and I'm gonna go with whatever she says.Unless Miss New Jersey or Miss Mississippi disagree.U be the judge
No "civility bullshit" tag for this one?What a bunch of amazingly vicious and nasty comments.Now I do agree it might have been better for the lady to bring this up before the competition. But Jesus people, can your hatred be more obvious?I'm so glad I'm not a liberal anymore.
Hey Andy Schmuck, is it possible to be "anti-trans" and not be a bigot? Or is it a given that any and all opposition to you and your comrades' agenda is bigotry?
I'll give you one thing Andy R: you sure do make strange bedfellows.
"I suppose being criticized for simple jealousy is more flattering than being criticized for being an anti-trans bigot."Anti-trans bigot....that's some funny stuff there. I'll tell you the real tragedy though...As a 50 year old guy with bad knees and weighing in at 280lbs, the NBA won't even look at me, much less let me start. The anti-oldguywithbadkneeswhoweighstoomuch bigotry is something this country should be ashamed of.
So far, nothing. Isn't there some 'threatened straight people' support group you's could publicise here?Publicise is an interesting spelling.
Far too much information on this thread ewwww
It's like Carol Herman with Tourette syndrome.If this was in person, I know we would have poop on us.
Alternative explanation: no one wants to feed the troll.
Andy R:"her penis "Whooooooaaaaaaaa?????????You REALLY like to fuzzy the line, eh?
" I forget: are you a self-professed proud fag yourself, bagman?"I was hoping to someday get there - you know, hope and change an all that, but if most other assholes are like you, I'm gonna have to reconsider.
Gonna have to move on to the next cage - this animal is just disgusting to watch.
Myself, I'm way too lofty and busy with my work on the hadron collider to pay much attention to beauty contests. Plus, what with internet porn, who really needs them anymore. Nonetheless, it does seem to me that the whole point of the competition is to designate what makes a particular woman the most attractive romantic partner. To be completely honest, I have always felt that a penis really detracts from a woman's sex appeal. It's far worse than cellulitis. I suppose there's nothing wrong with a transvestite competing, but he would only be able to win in a very slow field.
The people who identify with the opposite sex are not the problem. It's the people who tell those people that the proper course of action is self mutilation, rather than self acceptance, who are the problem.
chickelit,Just imagine the attention if it were at attention.During the swimsuit competition.wv: incrob 5. I'd say incrob 10, myself.
Also, I don't like the idea of these Miss America/beauty pageants in the first place, but as long as they are happening then I figure there shouldn't be any discrimination. If all the bigots want to quit over that, I don't think they'll be missedAny bets on Andy opposing banning the non-handicapped from the Special Olympics?I mean, it's discriminatory and all...
Beautiful evening, isn't it, with the sound of crickets chirping? Very relaxing.Dear, could you get me another cold one? Thank you honey.Ahhhhhhhh!
Yes, Mary, I've heard those arguments occasionally online, but they're idiotic, so no, they weren't an influence on my comment. I stand by what I wrote. I'm mocking post modern pseudo intellectuals who would destroy every distinction and make language meaningless. I was not comparing transgendered people to animals.I am also aware that there is a tiny population of medically intersexed people. Again, I think that advising such people to mutilate themselves is outrageous.As for Althouse, I don't know why you don't like her. I don't know either of you personally, and neither does just about anyone else here. Therefore, I think it's inappropriate to bring your personal conflict here to her blog. I think it might be better to just let whatever it is go entirely.
The comment made by Bertram Wooster about lesbians and MTFs is right on target.The Lesbian community has fought over the inclusion of tranny men in their groups and organizations for decades. Although many lesbians will give you the progressive party line in public, in private the overwhelming majority won't have anything to do with these folks and certainly would never ever choose one as a sexual partner.In the name of tolerance, we're orchestrating a huge cultural farce in which we all are forced to pretend that people can actually change gender at will and that our medical profession has the capability to 'reassign' gender. What an outrageous joke.There is much resentment among many lesbians and gays over the whole LGBTQ--ABCXYZ nonsense.
There is much resentment among many lesbians and gays over the whole LGBTQ--ABCXYZ nonsense.I've often wondered about that. I can't see any reason these "groups" are lumped together, other than as an attempt to swell the ranks of the 2% for political purposes.
Que sera sera. What can you do? Nice crickets, bagoh. I think I'll listen in.
Awwww, someone is mad because they look worse than someone who was born a woman. That's jealousy, and it's uuuugly.
this sentence looks like a mistake but i know that if you read it 3 times, you can understand what she is trying to say and this is the most important thing.
"There is much resentment among many lesbians and gays over the whole LGBTQ--ABCXYZ nonsense."Perhaps you should have a word with our resident LGBTQXYZ ideologue, "Andy R.".
I'm not sure why the status of her penis is anyone's business. Someone please carve that on the tombstone of this poor Republic. Also, will the last one out please turn off the lights?
Was this something about Rachel Maddow? I didn't follow the linkTrying to resist snarkily asking what on earth a beauty pageant would have to do with rachel Maddow (and vice versa, I suppose). Failing. I tried, I really did.
"I'm not sure why the status of her penis is anyone's business. "That is so wonderful in it's self contained parody that perhaps Althouse would consider making it the subtitle of her Blog forever.Maybe not.Hey! Who threw that? Be careful - it just missed my head.
Yankee girls got it going on this year. New Jersey and Delaware in particular. I also like Miss Iowa.
The transexual Dierdre McCloskey is the best mind at work in academia today. Her books are erudite, accessible, important, and persuasive. One can admire her immensely but also believe that an XX woman is a different kind of woman than an XY woman. Just not sure whether to pay any attention to the bouts of cognitive dissonance holding those positions simultaneously occasionally engenders.
Don:Your lips are moving, but I can't understand what's coming out of your mouth.......
Dave D - yes, that wasn't particularly articulate was it. How about boiling it down to "Is it mean and hurtful to believe that an XX woman is different than an XY woman, and if so, why?"
Do a search on Google Images for "Miss Pennsylvania Sheena Monnin." Her fake breasts are hideous. Once you allow that much fakery, what's a little more?How about a natural pageant. No makeup, no plastic surgery. I'd allow them to have had braces, but no veneers or bleaching.
Do they let born-female women in the transgender pageants? If a born-female woman tried to get on Ru Paul's Drag Race would they let her? This is just another lame example of the rules apply to thee but not to me and the squeaky drama wheel getting all the grease.
I don't think you can tell with certainty that her breasts are fake. I'd need more evidence than her photos. Lacking that, I would have to go with Jack Black on this one:Well, l could squeeze 'em.That's real enough for me.Now, you might say that the tranny crosses the same threshold with implants but there's a certain minimum of factory original parts beyond which the ick factor predominates. Real parts are best and, for some, accept no substitutes is the best rule. Y chromosome: No touchem zone.Tammy Bruce has said “Ironically, the idea of becoming a woman through surgery and hormones could only appeal to men who are truly clueless about what it means to be a woman.” Does anyone think that Miss PA is clueless about being a woman? Go ahead and stake that ground out if you want. If she resents competing against a man it's no wonder to me. What a loony place pop culture is, is all I can say.
"Is it mean and hurtful to believe that an XX woman is different than an XY woman, and if so, why?"My point was that the SIMPLEST definition for a MAN is XX. "XX" can NEVER BE a woman. Why is this so confusing?
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