December 18, 2012

Why are people having so much trouble understanding rhetorical devices?

You may remember Justice Scalia the other day tweaking the kids at Princeton for not being able to handle reductio ad absurdum:
It's a form of argument that I thought you would have known, which is called the 'reduction to the absurd'...
It can't be, of course, that the Princeton students never get argument that comes in the form of taking a principle you know your interlocutor holds dear and presenting him with other things that could fall within the principle that you know he'll object to. It's irritating to be on the receiving end. The one who wields that argument is playing with ideas, fun-loving, and challenging. The one on the receiving end doesn't want to play along. He may get super-serious and offended: How dare you talk about something I hold dear alongside those horrible things that all decent people loathe?! It's an argument with which older, calmer people needle the emotional young.

Scalia never said homosexuality is like bestiality. Here's the passage in his dissenting opinion in Lawrence v. Texas that heats up his opponents:
State laws against bigamy, same-sex marriage, adult incest, prostitution, masturbation, adultery, fornication, bestiality, and obscenity are... sustainable only in light of Bowers’ validation of laws based on moral choices. Every single one of these laws is called into question by today’s decision; the Court makes no effort to cabin the scope of its decision to exclude them from its holding.
Now, it's rhetoric to act like he equated homosexuality with bestiality. It's rhetoric to say — as the Princeton student did — "Do you have any regret or shame for drawing these comparisons you did in your dissents?"

It's rhetoric to respond to that question — a demand for an account of Scalia's inner life — by mocking the student's inability to understand rhetoric. That was cold, intentionally cold. Hey, you Princeton guys are supposed to be smart. But Scalia could have chosen a warmer approach without selling himself out. That question could have been answered:
Actually, I do have feelings and I know that many of the opinions I write upset people, but what would cause me regret or shame would be to let things like that sway me from deciding the cases according to the law. I'm a judge, and when I'm doing my judge work, I have to stick to being a judge. And part of being a judge is to demand that a case express a rule that can be applied to other things that are similar. The question in Lawrence was whether moral feeling, standing alone, is enough to support a law. If the majority was saying no, then it needed to commit to that proposition across the board, and I was testing that, and a test really does need to be sharp and probing. I get that it pains you, but step up and argue with me. Tell me why bestiality is different from the other things on the morality-only list. Actually, it's pretty easy: The animal has feelings. We have feelings. Animals have feelings. Feelings matter. But as a judge, I can't do feelings. Come on, have some empathy for me in my plight!
I've gone on quite long about Scalia, but Scalia wasn't the inspiration for this post. What got me started on this track was the difficulty readers had with 2 of yesterday's posts that entailed the use of rhetorical devices. One consisted of 2 quotes: "What is the gun community going to do about this tragedy?"/"I dunno. What is the gay community going to do about Penn State?" This linked to Instapundit, who provided the source of the quotes and who now has a couple updates that suggest he's getting pushback similar to some of what I see in my long comments thread, e.g., "Professor Althouse, the comparison is absurd, bigoted and offensive any way you cut it. You should be ashamed of yourself for linking to it with approval."

See? Shame on you! I am offended! Come on, think about it. Figure out the puzzle. It's an analogy, pithily phrased, and thus an occasion to pick apart the ways in which the 2 statements are/are not parallel. Many readers in my comments thread did understand the rhetoric and deal with the coherence of the analogy, but many fell into the sort of expression of outrage that's so common and so dull these days. At least show you understand the rhetoric and then tell me it's in bad taste to be humorous and challenging over topics so raw and painful.

The second post that got me started on this topic was the one that linked to this Matt K. Lewis item "The media should be ashamed of its Connecticut coverage." I'd quoted only the last few lines of that piece, where he proposed "some common sense media control." He's doing a twist on the post-Newtown gun control arguments, switching the right under threat from the 2d Amendment to the 1st Amendment. I thought that was clever and thought-provoking, but unfortunately some readers didn't get it. One said: "Professor Althouse, I'm not sure whether you got punked or if you get that this article is satire and are endorsing it's [sic] specious point." Oh, jeez, that's annoying! I like to keep things crisp around here. Are people going to be so dull that all humor will need arrows pointing at it saying it's humor?

Actually, I see that the 2 comments I've selected for quotation here are by the same person. Maybe he's simply pretending to be dull and doing the Theater of Outrage. That's rhetoric too, and I need to get it.

214 comments:

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geoffrobinson said...

"There is nothing absurd about saying we base our law against murder on morality."

I don't think you understand what is being reduced to absurd in this type of argument. It's not a particular topic. It's the logic of an argument you are countering.

Argument A: You can't base laws on morality.
Counter-Argument B: If I use your logic, I can't ban murder. (showing the logic of Argument A to be absurd, not that Sunday blue laws and murder are equivalent)

So this is the heart of the matter and one of the reasons people don't understand the reductio ad absurdum form of argumentation.

JRPtwo said...

Ignorance is Bliss, thanks for the reasoned engagement. A couple of points:

Scalia’s argument is not reduction to the absurd . . . .

Well, that’s how Scalia labeled his argument, according to the New York Daily News Article:
"It's a form of argument that I thought you would have known, which is called the 'reduction to the absurd,'" Scalia told Hosie of San Francisco during the question-and-answer period. "If we cannot have moral feelings against homosexuality, can we have it against murder? Can we have it against other things?"

Scalia is not saying they should be illegal because he believes they are wrong. He is saying that state legislatures have the power to make things illegal based on morality.

We agree--that’s what I meant when saying Scalia argues “we” can ban things. Scalia also uses “we” to refer to the legislature. So, I am not addressing his person views on sodomy, whatever they are.

We also agree on my main point, that murder was a bad analogy.

And, we agree that sodomy falls in the same category as other laws involving private consensual sexual conduct. Scalia as well lumps them together. He lamented in his Lawrence v. Texas dissent that moral feeling alone seems to have little force to sustain bans on human sexual activity in light of the court striking down the Texas sodomy statute. Prostitution and buying alcohol on Sundays are interesting counterexamples. Perhaps they suggest that moral feeling plus commerce are sufficient to permit legislative action. But then, it’s not moral feeling alone, is it.

I’m still curious what “moral feeling alone” means. We all agree it’s wrong? We the legislature voted for it? It’s been considered wrong historically? It’s icky? It’s what my religion tells me? And, if we say it’s what all criminal laws are based on, then it’s circular. The activity can be made illegal because it’s immoral and we know it’s immoral because it’s illegal. And how are we to balance these conclusory reasons against, say, a privacy interest? To me, if moral feeling is the best you can do, I suspect your argument is very thin and your proposed law is intrusive.

LoafingOaf said...

Weird. I put a comment in this thread, and I see a few people quoted some text from it in reply, asking me questions. But I can't find the comment I posted. Where is it?

LoafingOaf said...

Tim, I'd love your question to me, but the comment I posted in this thread has flat-out vanished. No trace of it anymore except the couple of people who quoted from it. I'm not going to post a reply until I can figure out what happened to my original post.

LoafingOaf said...

I'd love to answer the people who asked me questions, but since my original comment has been wiped out what is the point? I'd like to know what happened to my comment.

LoafingOaf said...

Was this my comment:

"Comment deleted
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

12/18/12 4:53 PM"

I posted absolutely nothing in this thread that would justify a deletion. But the intolerance to free speech is noted. BULLSHIT!

DEEBEE said...

Thanks Ann.
I am glad I geld my penny worth or less in duking it out with the like of AF and garage and Inga.......

Ignorance is Bliss said...

geoffrobinson & JRPtwo-

I stand corrected on the Reductio ad Absurdium.

jr565 said...

JRPTwo wrote:
We agree--that’s what I meant when saying Scalia argues “we” can ban things. Scalia also uses “we” to refer to the legislature. So, I am not addressing his person views on sodomy, whatever they are

the view on sodmomy ony is irrelevant. The issue is whether society can ban whatever is valid. And how the students objections to bans on things he wants to not be banned are not in act valid on the grounds ththe suggested.

The student in question argued along absolutist grounds. They are clearly in the wrong. Of course society could restrict marriage to whatever, or it could make rules against sodomy, bestiality and incest. The question is SHOULD they.

SH said...

I'm only 40 but I was taught all this stuff. I had to take a logic class and a debate class... I also had a couple poly sci instructors who went over how to catch tricky wordplay arguments when people actually meant to connect unconnected events / deceive you...

mdgiles said...

"As I said, murder was a bad example. But it was not his only example. The rest of his argument still stands."

We seem to have forgotten that in many times and places murder in and of itself wasn't a crime; but an economic transaction for which a "blood price" of some kind was paid. It's only our moral sense that made it purely a crime.

mdgiles said...

"As I said, murder was a bad example. But it was not his only example. The rest of his argument still stands."

We seem to have forgotten that in many times and places murder in and of itself wasn't a crime; but an economic transaction for which a "blood price" of some kind was paid. It's only our moral sense that made it purely a crime.

Anonymous said...

Here's a couple reductio ad absurdums for you.

Out of 100 schizophrenics. 8 of them will commit a violent crime.
Out of 100 perfectly “normal” people. 5 of them will commit a violent crime.

Thus, the association of schizophrenia or other mental illness, with violent crime is FALSE. It is believed by many, based on the SPOTLIGHT fallacy.

Hypothetically (assuming 100 to be the total number), if you permanently confined all schizophrenics, you would sentence 92 innocent people to LIFE IMPRISONMENT to prevent 8 violent crimes.

By the same token, if you permanently confined all “sane” people, you would sentence 95 innocent people to Life imprisonment, to prevent 5 violent crimes.

Why not, then, prevent ALL violent crime by putting everyone in prison?

----------------------------
Let's add that there is a much stronger correlation between schizophrenia and violence when substance abuse is added to the mix.
Further, there is a very strong correlation between “sane” people and violence when substance abuse is involved.

Clearly, the only sensible solution is to permanently imprison everyone who EVER drinks alcohol or uses any “recreational” drug. That’s right, LIFE IMPRISONMENT WITHOUT PAROLE; WITHOUT TRIAL; WITHOUT APPEAL; WITHOUT DEFENSE; WITHOUT CHARGE.

-----------------------
How about those reductios, Ann?

Don't like those, do ya?

Anonymous said...

How about this one:

"Sane" people commit violent crimes at a rate of 5%.
Schizophrenics commit violent crimes at a rate of 8%.
If it is true that blacks commit violent crimes at a rate 4 to 8 times higher than that of whites; then blacks commit violent crimes at a rate of AT LEAST 12%.

Given that Ann wants to imprison all mentally ill people based on their alleged propensity to commit violent crime; then, Ann must also want to IMPRISON FOR LIFE EVERY BLACK PERSON IN AMERICA -- WITHOUT RIGHTS, TRIAL, DEFENSE, PAROLE, OR ANY CHARGE OF A CRIME OTHER THAN BEING BLACK.

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