April 28, 2013

Resisting a robber who points a gun.

A trend in the Bronx.
“You get more resistance in high-crime areas than low-crime areas,” [said Rajiv Sethi, a Barnard College economist]. “People who would not resist have left the areas. Those who stay can’t afford to leave or to give up the little property that they have in their possession.”...

“We are not under siege by the vigilantes and the criminals that come out at night,” said Andy King, a city councilman whose district includes the area. “The pride, the respect factor” takes hold, he said. “It’s a violation, and some people are at a stage in our communities that they will stand up for certain beliefs.”
In the comments, someone from Cincinnati says:
I don't live in NYC and would never live in a city that prefers to allow armed criminals run free while disarming it's citizens. In the midwest city where I live, there were three recent attempted armed robberies. In all three instances, the robber got shot dead by the victim. No expensive trial or costly incarceration. Just dead criminals, each of whom was no stranger to the justice system....

53 comments:

Broomhandle said...

Amen.

mccullough said...

It would be nice to let people defend themselves effectively.

Synova said...

Armed robbery is such a bigger deal than just plain robbery because the robber has decided the terms going in. (Which is why the rate of "hot" home robberies matter, even if the robber has a base ball bat or a knife instead of a gun. It turns a burglary into a stick-up the same as if it was a convenience store.) When the robber sets the terms, the people being robbed ought to be able to answer *in those terms*.

And of course people with little can't afford to give it up. Their property may not be insured and the money in their wallet may be the difference between eating until pay day... or not.

madAsHell said...

My grandfather was the physics teacher, and coach of the rifle team at Everett High School (Washington).

There was no rifle team in my Seattle high school.

I'm absolutely convinced that high school juniors, and seniors should be sent to boot camp. The best students should be given offers to join the US Army.

The rest will know how to safely operate a firearm, and how to build a fire.....and maybe...the some of the women will learn to keep their knees crossed.

Yes, the Spartans would approve.

CEO-MMP said...

“It’s a violation, and some people are at a stage in our communities that they will stand up for certain beliefs.”


So they had to get to some sort of "stage" to decide to be human beings?

Fuck.

Where I live criminals rarely attempt armed robbery--they know the odds aren't in their favor. They specifically avoid places that have cars with NRA stickers.

Kirk Parker said...

Wow, those NYC residents in the comments are sure pieces of work! Lots and lots of proof-by-assertion claims that no one could possibly resist successfully by using their own handgun against their assailant; lots and lots of center-of-the-universe provincialism at not realizing that there are countless examples of exactly that, happening all the time, outside their miserable little (big) cocoon.

Pogo said...

"“From any perspective of rationality, the thing to do with a robber is to cooperate politely,” said Franklin E. Zimring, a criminologist at Berkeley Law School."

The rational thing is to shoot him dead.

In NYC, the rational response to robbery is to ban large sodas.

Marc G. said...

My cousins grew up in a farming area of Northern California and I remember going to see my cousin at his high school...the parking lot was filled with trucks with rifles and shotguns in gun racks.

It was the odd truck that didn't have a gun in a gun rack...yet no one ever shot up a school. And there was virtually no crime in the area.

Now, you get kicked out of school for drawing a picture of a gun.

Pogo said...

Apparently, I am supposed to "cooperate politely" with cops AND robbers.

Nice scam they got going.

The gubmint takes, and the thieves take.
Cooperate politely!

sydney said...

A long, long time ago when I was young, there was a bank hold up in a small town near us. The town was very small, the downtown was just a cross-roads, really. Surprising they had a bank at all. But, they had one motel, and it happened to be around the holidays when the one motel did their only business worth anything when this robbery occurred. AND, the elderly lady owner of the motel happened to be at the bank with her deposit that day. She refused to give it up to the robbers. She told them that was all the money she had and she wasn't giving it to them. And you know what? They didn't do anything to her. They didn't even take her money. Sometimes, you just have to stand up to evil.

sane_voter said...

When you choose to live somewhere that doesnt allow you to defend yourself, you deserve whatever the hell happens to you. That's why I will never live in NY or Ill, or any other state that doesnt have Concealed carry and castle doctrine.

ironrailsironweights said...

Years ago I heard that people who live in the ghetto* weren't particularly frightened of guns, but were absolutely terrified of knives. Hey, there may be something to that: who in their right mind would dare mess with a Spyderco Civilian?

* = not the actual term used

Peter

betamax3000 said...

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I swallowed a bug.
Warning shot.
New Guinea.
Severed feet.
Unholy Science.
Zelda Fitzgerald.
Shame Hole.
Despair Pit.
Grammar.
National Grid.
iHop.
Squeeze Packets.
Dog Roll.
dogs, grass, video
Desi Arnaz,
Sunset Boulevard
Sounds like a creepy stalker
I'm skeptical
bodily fluids
these kids today

Luther said...

Betamax, maybe I'm wrong, but let this thread alone. It could be of real interest and value.

Luther said...

Betamax, I may be wrong, but I ask don't spew this thread.

I'm interested in various peoples opinions on the subject.

Paul said...

Like they said, those who don't resist sooner or later have nothing. Everything taken from them.

And the police? Hahahaha man that is just a sick joke.

Thank goodness I live in Texas. Yes I have a CHL and yes I pack it very very often (or really I pack a selection, small one for summer wear, big one for winter wear.)

I am no 'Rambo'. Been packing since CHL first started here and never had to use it, but then I don't do the 'three stupids'.

What is happening in NYC ends up happening wherever crime is high and people have no realistic way to defend themselves. See those with means have left long time ago, those that won't fight back have been driven out, with or without their belongings, so that just leaves those who fight or those who hide well.

Lots of luck you guys. You voted for the socialist that gave you your 'gun control'. As Benjamin Franklin said, "Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety".

as published in Memoirs of the life and writings of Benjamin Franklin (1818).

Old Ben knew a thing or two.

Leland said...

Some young guys tried to rob a bank on Friday about a .5 mile from the house, and it didn't go well for them. One of the surviving robbers graduated the local HS just a year ago.

n.n said...

The only effective means to deter criminal activity is to reduce the value of a target and increase the known risk and opportunity cost to commit an act of involuntary exploitation.

The only effective response to commission of a crime is to respond with equal or greater force.

The people who want to or do commit acts of involuntary exploitation cannot be permitted to conduct their affairs without suffering repercussions.

MadisonMan said...

Just hand over the 32-oz Cola and no one gets hurt.

Mick said...

The responders who claim that New York City's crime and murder rate are lower are cherry picking. If you compare only inner-city Cincinnati to the larger New York population including Staten Island and Queens, of course. But compare the Bronx? Or compare the Cincy suburbs? I bet it is different.

David said...

The other commenters jumped all over the guy (?) from Cincy. Of course their responses are largely irrelevant to his point. The response comments are all from New York, where the sheep are well tended.

Synova said...

That's an interesting story, Leland. The writing was atrocious, though. I was going to say it's nice that the news station lets the high-school intern write copy but I clicked through and the author appears to be grown up.

NotquiteunBuckley said...

It was a tumultuous era for popular music, and Fey was right in the middle of it. He was involved with the 1969 Denver Pop Festival that ended in a cloud of police tear gas, and he was behind a chaotic 1971 Jethro Tull date that inspired the city to ban rock concerts at Red Rocks for a couple of years. "I sued the city to bring America there for the Fourth of July and won," he boasts. "I'm six wins, no losses and a tie in lawsuits with the city."

His combativeness didn't stop at the courthouse door. During the Seventies it was not uncommon for Fey to become embroiled in physical confrontations. "I used to get into fights all the time. I didn't go looking for trouble, but if I was attacked, I'd fight back. Like the time I hit the lead singer of Sha Na Na. It was 1973 at the Denver Coliseum with Steely Dan, Chuck Berry and Sha Na Na, and Chuck Berry walks in and says, 'I'm going to play now.' And since he gets his money up front and will walk if he doesn't like something, we started tearing down Sha Na Na's stage setup. It was an ugly scene, and the singer starts yelling, 'Bill Graham would never pull this shit.' I said, 'So go play for fucking Bill Graham.' He took a swing at me, and I hit him. Hard."

As Fey admits, he hurled everything from the most profane invective to random items from his desk at anyone and everyone who crossed him. "I remember talking to this one guy once, and I said, 'Bill, I'm going to be on the next plane to New York. Why don't you go get a cop, because when I get there, I'm going to throw you out the fucking window.' I'd tell people that I'd tear their eyes out, throw them in the garbage can, stomp on them. I was nuts."

http://www.westword.com/1997-08-14/music/the-long-goodbye/full/

David R. Graham said...

"Murder rate" is "declining" because mil trauma techniques are passed to civ MDs, who make a murder act into an assault result. Stats are made to lie. Murder acts are way up, and far beyond population increase rate.

Tim said...

If, at the end of all the permutations and mental masturbations, you aren't willing to use deadly force to save your life, or the lives of those close to you, or aren't willing to let others use deadly force to save their own lives, or the lives of those close to them, your one life isn't worth shit.

Tim said...

one = own.

I make a wicked strong Margarita.

One worth living for, lol.

Methadras said...

Leftist anti-gun ideology that would disarm law abiding citizens to allow the criminals to subjugate them in terror is the real crime here.

n.n said...

Methadras:

Disarming or disempowering law-abiding members of society is an unproductive means to address the problem. Whether it is government agents who use excessive or unnecessary force, criminal minorities, or law-abiding members of society who have made a poor judgment, they should each individual and equally be held accountable for their actions. There cannot be a general presumption of guilt in a free society, where acts of involuntary exploitation will occur outside despite proscriptive laws intended to curb them.

Lem said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Lem said...

We should 'make it a little harder' for the robbers to get resisted.

That's what I'm reading in that article.

Steve Koch said...

The great thing about federalism is that each state can decide for itself how it wants to handle issues such as concealed carry, my home is my castle, and the right to defend yourself.

It seems obvious that taking away guns from law abiding citizens makes it easier for criminals to be criminal.

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Kirby Olson said...

First and second amendment rights are routinely taken away by colleges. It might be a way to get the youth vote back to talk about this problem.

edutcher said...

The people of the "Wild" West had, in many cases, fought through the Civil (or Mexican or Crimean or Second Afghan or...) War, fought Indians to get where they were going and stay there, were armed, and had no nonsense about them.

Encouraging to see a similar trend in Bloomie's Gotham.

Jay said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Jay said...

Look dummies, liberals are for "common sense" solutions such as: take guns away and you'll have fewer gun crimes.

And if you don't support these "common sense" ideas (which are not supported by any actual data), then you're a big dummy/tea party kook who wants to are kindergartners?

Ok?!

Jay said...

Despite the delusions of NYC liberals that nobody could ever stop a crime with their own handgun, thankfully, over the last 25 years in America:

1. We are well past 200 million firearms sold
More than 167 million BG checks were made through the FBI's system between 1998 and early 2013, alone.

2. The number of "shall issue" concealed carry states has gone from 9 to 37 and the number of concealed carry permits has gone up 600%

3. The number of mass shootings has not increased.

4. And the US violent crime rate has fallen precipitously, it is now at the same level as 1965.

The community based reality can not acknowledge these things.

Lauderdale Vet said...

There's a DGU subreddit over here if you're interested in such a thing.

If you know of a DGU that isn't listed, feel free to add it!

Pogo said...

Another reason why I have come to think of Democrats as evil:

They do not believe you have a right to defend your own life from attack.

You can bomb people for political advantage and then get tenure at Columbia, but you cannot save yourself from a rapist a thief.

What an evil perspective they have.

Larry J said...

The fundamental right to self defense dates back centuries before we became a country. Any government that forbids people from defending themselves is uncivilized. They're saying that the criminals have free rein over the populus. It's barbaric.

David Hampton said...

I admire the Israelis and the way they handle terrorism. They keep it simple. Shoot to kill and hose off the sidewalk. Glad to see folks defending themselves and what is theirs. The only states I visit are the ones who honor my CCW. The rest, generally the east coast and the west coast. Illinois is a case all by itself. We drive around it and don't patronize the rest.

Tank said...

Synova said...

Armed robbery is such a bigger deal than just plain robbery because the robber has decided the terms going in.


It's no bigger to me. If someone breaks into my house, then what? I'm 60 years old, 155 pounds. Am I going to arm wrestle him for my valuables, my wife, my money? As soon as he's in, it's shoot to kill.

Although I don't carry, it's the same on the street. How do I know what weapon is going to pop out next?

cubanbob said...

Publicly flogging and hanging violent criminals would go a long way in reducing violent crime. It's time to get back to the tried and true methods of crime reduction.

AprilApple said...

Liberals, or the most part, really don't believe in self defense.




Jay said...

Hahahahahaha!

Democratic leaders are wooing staunchly pro-gun candidates to run in pivotal Senate races at the same time they are discussing a strategy for bringing gun control legislation back up for debate.



90%!!!

mikee said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Methadras said...

n.n said...

Methadras:

Disarming or disempowering law-abiding members of society is an unproductive means to address the problem.


That is an absolutely false presumption. Empowering citizens with the ability to choose whether or not to arm themselves as a right and function of self-defense is essential to a healthy and productive society. It directly address the problem of criminality by having citizens be responsible for their own safety, the safety of their families and of others, while the criminality is held in check by the promotion that an armed citizenry is a safe citizenry, by-in-large and that any criminal intent that can't directly be addressed by law enforcement will be met with citizen application of those laws of self defense.

Whether it is government agents who use excessive or unnecessary force, criminal minorities, or law-abiding members of society who have made a poor judgment, they should each individual and equally be held accountable for their actions.

And they in general are. Case in point, the Treyvon Martin incident. No government agent involved, a collision of two citizens where poor judgements were made, where one made a poor choice and another that is facing the consequences of his actions in a court of law. Guns and gun use require a higher level of responsibility, but one that shouldn't be abrogated because those in higher authority do not believe that citizens can handle the responsibility.

There cannot be a general presumption of guilt in a free society, where acts of involuntary exploitation will occur outside despite proscriptive laws intended to curb them.

And so the answer is, is to disarm everyone equally so that the presumption of innocence during the commission of an armed robbery is maintained? When engaged in self-defense, guilt or the presumption of innocence becomes irrelevant. When it's done with a weapon, ever more so.

Synova said...

"It's no bigger to me. If someone breaks into my house, then what? I'm 60 years old, 155 pounds. Am I going to arm wrestle him for my valuables, my wife, my money? As soon as he's in, it's shoot to kill."

I compared that to the difference between hot burglaries and a robber who tries to make sure you're not home. If you're home, the robber has chosen a confrontation and has decided on the context of violence... the same as if the robber points a gun at a convenience store clerk.

n.n said...

Methadras:

I think we are in agreement. Also, I never suggested that possession and use of Arms was anything other than a choice. In order to respect individual dignity, most behaviors are a choice of the individual, and they must subsequently accept responsibility for the consequences of their choice.

There are few behaviors which require regulation because they are either incompatible with other people's rights, incompatible with the terms and circumstances of reality, or are crimes against the individual, society, and humanity.

Alex said...

Oh great - just what we need more Gunfights at the OK Corral. I would much rather the victims submit passively to the criminal.

Alex said...

Tank - it's that kind of attitude that breeds Palin-fascism.

Thucydides said...

Why would anyone want to submit to you, Alex?

Thucydides said...

Why would anyone want to submit to you, Alex?