June 27, 2013

Rachel Jeantel made it sound like Travon Martin profiled George Zimmerman... or... what is a "creepy ass cracker"?



TalkLeft describes "a train wreck" witness:
She said (on direct exam no less by the prosecutor) that shortly after first spotting Zimmerman, Martin described Zimmerman to her as a "Creepy-a*s Cracker" and later, described Zimmerman a few times as "this ni*ga" (as in this ni*ga following him.) The two minute clip above is of Rachel and the prosecutor repeating creepy a*s cracker over and over as the court reporter struggles to make out what she's saying, Rachel explaining that creepy as* cracker means a white person, then and expressing concern the creepy guy might be a rapist.
So "cracker" is a way of saying white guy, but "ni*ga" is apparently just a way to say guy? I can understand that, but I'd like to ask a few questions — out of curiosity. I'm not saying the defense lawyer should ask this on cross-examination. (Which should make for some interesting TV today.) I'd like to know whether perhaps Trayvon Martin perceived Zimmerman as a person of color and not a white man at all. You assume that there's no way he'd say "cracker" if he didn't see him as white? But he didn't say "cracker." He said "creepy ass cracker." I understand the use of "ass" as an intensifier connected to the adjective "creepy." Creepy-ass cracker, as in very creepy cracker.

But "ass" could go with "cracker" — "ass-cracker." The conversation continued, according to Jeantel: "So... he told me the man was looking at him, so I had to think it might have been a rapist."

Why rapist? A man raping a man? How common is that as a fear? But it was the first thing Jeantel thought to say after he said creepy-ass cracker/creepy ass-cracker. The term "ass cracker" could easily mean a man who rapes a man, especially one who goes after a teenaged boy.

Urban Dictionary has some definitions of "ass cracker" that predate this trial:
1. ass cracker...
One who not knowing the code or combination to a particular slice of ass is nonetheless able to get inside the ass...

2. Ass Cracker...
One who engages in anal sex.
That wanker is an ass cracker.

3. Ass Cracker...
A term used to describe a man with a large enough penis, to brake the anus of the woman or man he is having anal intercourse with.
"Damn, his's cock is so big, he is definatly an ass cracker!"
The word "creepy" makes special sense if you reinterpret the "ass" to go with "cracker." Martin said a man was following him, looking at him. He might have thought Zimmerman was a man out looking for sex and was watching him for that reason. What conversations had Martin had in the past with Jeantel about worries of this kind. She "had to think it might have been a rapist."

TalkLeft says:
She describes how Martin was "right by his father's house" after he lost Zimmerman, and refused to run home. I think he had plenty of time to go home, he obviously chose not to....
Why didn't Martin take Jeantel's advice and run home? The rapist/ass-cracker theory makes sense of Martin's decision to go after Zimmerman. If he saw Zimmerman as a sexual predator, he might think confrontation was a good idea or even an important step: These creeps in the neighborhood need to know that I'm not their prey. It's not enough to run inside daddy's house. My manhood must be established here and now or I can't walk free around here anymore.

570 comments:

«Oldest   ‹Older   201 – 400 of 570   Newer›   Newest»
Lem the artificially intelligent said...

If the trial is about race relations, Zimmerman is going to be found guilty.

Sad, but, it looks like what found OJ NOT guilty may find Zimmerman guilty.

Anonymous said...

You Yankees are reading far too much into this. Dumb ass cracker, crazy ass cracker, creepy ass cracker, cracker ass cracker, ugly ass cracker, fool ass cracker, ad nauseum...

They are all variations on a common theme, and have no sexual connotation.

Gay assed cracker might.

Known Unknown said...

Sad, but, it looks like what found OJ NOT guilty may find Zimmerman guilty.

Hopefully no one makes him try on gloves.

Patrick said...

Her testimony is all argle bargle.

Matt Sablan said...

Side note: She is now apparently stating that the prosecution altered the transcript and that she could definitively tell it was Martin. Whether the prosecution was sloppy in making the transcript or she is lying, it doesn't matter: The whole point is a muddy, confusing mess.

Beloved Commenter AReasonableMan said...

Matthew Sablan said...
You're an incredibly biased person unable to actually look at the case objectively.


Conversely, I think you are way too over-invested in the outcome of this case. In fact I don't think Zimmerman is guilty of 2nd degree murder.

Matt Sablan said...

"Conversely, I think you are way too over-invested in the outcome of this case."

-- Eh, the only place I talk about it is here. Where, you know, it is the topic of discussion. Even here, I've worked in multiple Ace Attorney jokes. So, I think you're seeing things that aren't there.

Brian Brown said...

garage mahal said...

Zimmerman is a creepy looking dude


Coming from you, that is parody.

Brian Brown said...

AReasonableMan said...


Conversely, I think you are way too over-invested in the outcome of this case.


Well, you're the one who comes here and types outright lies about the events and case.

So what do you think that says about you?

MajorSensible said...

Will we get a Rachel Jeantel autotune out of this?

Better yet, a Bad Lip Reading video.

traditionalguy said...

Mathew....I am offering you my 42 years of experience as to the way the Juries see in live court room life.

arguing from authority and reason is a fun activity on Althouse, but juries take hold of their role of deciders and use subconscious personal experiences to reach their decisions on who to believe.

Brian Brown said...

traditionalguy said...
The prosecutor's burden was met in the clear and convincing opening statement. That can slip away, but so far the witnesses have affirmed it.


What is this supposed to mean.

Every state witness changed their story on the stand.

All of them.

You are biased in a pretty pathetic manner.

madAsHell said...

She wrote the letter in cursive, but can't read cursive??

What the hell is going on here?? When is the prosecution going to call her a hostile witness? Why are there so many surprises? Did the prosecution fail to coach her? She's a disaster......on food stamps!!

Anonymous said...

How common is that as a fear?

More men are raped every year than women in the US.

jr565 said...

Could this be as simple as Trayvon not knowin about a community watch because he came from an area where such a thing didnt exist? And because he didnt know about it assumed that anyone watching him must have been a crazy rapist? Culture shock may have got him killed.

Matt Sablan said...

"Why are there so many surprises?"

-- My best theory is that the prosecution knew that the case was stupid from the start (hence why Corey has somewhat abandoned her people to this rather embarrassing display.) So, at this point, there's not much they can do but take it on the chin.

Ross K. Wolfe said...

I have been informed by non-whites who who grew up in in the NYC inner city that "nigga" is a term meaning "a guy/a person" and is a completely different word from the racial slur that looks similar but ends in "er" instead of "a".
I still wouldn't ever use the word myself, since I don't want to be accidentally mistaken as using the racial slur (especially since I'm white), even though I was told it's technically okay. Better safe than sorry, says I.

Kelly said...

All the kids say nigga, my fifteen year old says it. I was shocked the first time I heard her call her black friend that. I was informed I'm old and not with it because all the kids say it. If you put an er on the end instead of an a, you'll get your ass kicked though. So you have to be careful.

traditionalguy said...

damn autofill, the opening statement came out ending statement. West could crucify me. I beg mercy.

Pastafarian said...

tradguy: "arguing from...reason is a fun activity...but juries...use subconscious personal experiences to reach their decisions on who to believe."

Which is a pretty severe indictment of our entire system of justice.

This man should never have been arrested.

Now his fate sits in the hands of "low information" trailer-court denizens, sitting in rapt attention and taking notes as they listen to a diagnosably retarded girl who can't read a letter she supposedly penned herself, and can barely speak.

Candle said...

Years ago, the Atlantians formed a nation that didn't use racial slurs and what happened? Nobody knows.

Stephen A. Meigs said...

Sometimes a person can use a phrase to means several things at once. For instance, when one is in a poetic mood. Mostly, when one fears for one's hindquarters, one tends to be very rational and trying to keep things separate. But not necessarily.

On the one hand, abused people and people doubting whether they have been abused will throw out hints to people about the stuff that bounces around in their head. Mostly abused tend to forget their abuse, so the abuse will affect them less emotionally, but forgetting is frequently contrary to the interests of justice, and so people are such that the stuff that bounces around unconsciously does at times leak out through mumbling and perhaps verbal double-entendres, especially when around the trusted when the disgusting is at issue.

On the other hand, creepy people don't just tend to be forcible sodomizers, they tend to be homicidal forcible sodomizers. Once a forcible sodomizer kills a victim, he'll likely think there is some profitable reason he did something so profitless to himself, and so to find meaning he may well view things people say to have secret double meanings from Satan or whatever that he has convinced himself he is killing for. There's no telling, really, what exactly a (say) creepy serial killer might have convinced himself he should kill for, but it's almost bound to be something bizarre and stupid. Anyway, when around creepy-seeming people, there probably is an unconscious tendency in people to be very wary of anything in the surroundings that could be interpreted as some sort of sign that his death is destiny, and to speak so that on every level what one says can't be interpreted as a hint from evil to harm. A brain noticing a creepy coincidence can play tricks with him, hiding what it has noticed but very quickly sending him into terror, probably because noticing too much too quickly often leads to falling prey to dangerous conspiracies, etc. Rationally, people tend to laugh off these sorts of coincidences (puns, double-entendres, etc., are inherently funny) to their peril.

Matt Sablan said...

... Beyond parody. The state has objected to entering their own recording into evidence.

Anonymous said...

The term "ass cracker" could easily mean a man who rapes a man, especially one who goes after a teenaged boy.

As JPINTX and ThomasD made clear -- in Florida, cracker means white. Nothing to do with anal sex. White folks know that; black folks know that.

Althouse doesn't, but she's going to lecture us anyway.

Baron Zemo said...

I haven't been following this. Is this the girl that said the lacrosse guys raped her?

Baron Zemo said...

Are there any Duke Professors on the jury?

Baron Zemo said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
bagoh20 said...

"How common is that as a fear?"

I have never heard a man ever say he feared being raped on the street. It never happens, and it's never feared. More people fear being attacked by a shark in the public pool.

Candle said...

I'm afraid of getting raped all the time. What do I do about it? I stand tall and defy them. This is the inner power of all womyn.

Baron Zemo said...

Isn't cracker kind of corny?

I thought the only ones who talk about crackers these days are parrots.

bagoh20 said...

I believe the obvious. Martin knew what kind of guy Zimmerman was - some local guy suspicious of him being in the neighborhood. The only thing Martin feared was that Zimmerman would call the cops on him and cause him a hassle. Nobody wants to talk to the cops, but Martin wanted to score a knock out on a guy he thought he could do it with. Besides this guy was disrespecting him with his nosey surveillance. He chose poorly.

dbp said...

If there is anything to this, then I think it is more likely Martin thought Zimmerman was looking for anonymous sex. One never hears about gay rape outside of a prison context, so that seems unlikely. OTOH, Martin was young and could have had a warped perception of how common it is for a man to be raped outside of prison.

Anonymous said...

A few days ago here on Althouse, I mentioned I had hit a "big ass centipede" with my shoe. I hope he wasnt a big ass-centipede, that would be just too horrific to contemplate.

traditionalguy said...

Jay, my old friend, I always wanted a trial and we have one.

So all is well in the legal system. That was my only bias.

Z maybe an innocent scared man tracking a stranger in the dark with his Gloch ready to fire. Let's wait and see.

Michael said...

Forget the "ass cracker" deconstruction, it certifies cluelessness regarding black speech. Dumb ass, creepy ass, silly ass: these are two word adjectives preceding the following derogatory subject. creepy ass bitch, dumb ass honkey, etc. Ass cracker. Lame.

effinayright said...

If the witness said crazy ASS cracker, it might have worked. But she said, "crazy-ass CRACKER".

Hasn't anyone ever heard a black refer to another as a "jive-ass" nigga"?

The "xxx-ass SOMEONE" construction has been used by blacks for a long, long time. Trying to turn it into "xxx ASS-someone" is a helluva stretch.

Anonymous said...

I thought the only ones who talk about crackers these days are parrots.

Nope. In fact cutting-edge blacks are still all over "cracker."

Here's an apropos example from the New Black Panther Party: "Kill a Cracker for Trayvon."

dbp said...

Either way: Martin attacks Zimmerman because he doesn't like being followed or attacks because he goes-in for a bit of gay bashing.

It was a poor decision and hardly the fault of the victim, Zimmerman.

Drago said...

Traditionalguy: "...ready to fire."

Define "ready to fire"

Beloved Commenter AReasonableMan said...

Matthew Sablan said...
Whether the prosecution was sloppy in making the transcript or she is lying,


So if the defense makes an error, they are free to make their own transcript, they are not lying, but when Jeantel makes errors she's a habitual liar.

Anonymous said...

Time would be better spent deconstructing Althouse here.

Is she being dumb while thinking she's smart?

Or is she being smart in trolling for hits?

Drago said...

ARM: "..but when Jeantel makes errors she's a habitual liar"

"makes errors"?

You mean, lie?

Unknown said...

Sometimes a creepy-ass cracker is just a creepy-ass cracker.

garage mahal said...

There's something creepy, by the way, about your remarking on how creepy Zimmerman looks. Something about it just isn't right (It's rude, for one thing).

Yet somehow the numerous comments about the appearance and intelligence level of Rachel Jeantel weren't troublesome for you. Your concern is duly noted, but I stand by comment.

Beloved Commenter AReasonableMan said...

Matthew Sablan said...
... Beyond parody. The state has objected to entering their own recording into evidence.


No, they wanted the full recording, which made it clear what her meaning was.

Michael said...

Traditional Guy: Would be interested in your take on the all-white female jury, a cohort that I believe would reflexively prefer safety in the dark of night, a night that could be inhabited by black men in pursuit of no good. I suppose that vision could be overcome by the vision of a young boy, a mere child, pursued by an evil whitish grown man intent to kill, preferably a black person.

Not that it matters, but doesn't the law permit even evil racists to defend themselves with deadly force if they believe their life is in danger when attacked: provoked or unprovoked?

We shall see. I predict Zimmerman goes down for walking while white.

bagoh20 said...

" I hope he wasnt a big ass-centipede, that would be just too horrific to contemplate."

No biggie. You just slather a little peanut butter (use chunky) all over the cooter bone. Lie naked in the sun, and pull up your knees. The bright sun and peanut butter will coax the centipede to come out and forage. Then you just whack him with nail studded 2X4. Take some photos and link us. I know it works, but I never actually saw it done.

Unknown said...

Dumb-ass is one of my husband's favorite phrases. Usually nothing follows the phrase, as its usage is more like, "What a dumb-ass."

After reading this post though, I'm sure I will start thinking of removing the hyphen and using the ass to modify whatever word is implied. Dumb ass-plumber. Dumb ass-driver.

I guess I'll have to explain my giggling to hubs when these things pop into my head.

Brian Brown said...

traditionalguy said...
Jay, my old friend, I always wanted a trial and we have one.

So all is well in the legal system.


Well, considering there is no actual evidence to support an arrest, let alone a 2nd Degree Murder charge, no it isn't.

bagoh20 said...

It's amazing how obvious the double standard is. Imagine if Martin was the defendant and this was the jury. The outrage would be deafening. How are these people peers of either of these men?

Brian McKim and/or Traci Skene said...

I am skeptical of anything that appears in the Urban Dictionary. I suspect that it's merely a haven for wanna-be comedy writers and various goofballs. Quoting from it doesn't help your cred.

Michael said...

Because I live in the midst of blacks and have black friends and acquaintances I hear the "ass" modifier quite a lot. crazy ass motherfucker is a favorite and I can assure you it is not construed as "ass motherfucker". It just isn't. White people in the south are given to crazy ass this or that as well. I had to deal with a crazy ass homeless guy today. That is one crazy ass guy over there. And so on.

This should tell us something about the "art" of deconstruction. Knowing something about the subject can help.

Beloved Commenter AReasonableMan said...

Pastafarian said...
Which is a pretty severe indictment of our entire system of justice.

Now his fate sits in the hands of "low information" trailer-court denizens, sitting in rapt attention and taking notes as they listen to a diagnosably retarded girl who can't read a letter she supposedly penned herself, and can barely speak.


This kind of elitist attack is fundamentally anti-democratic.

Baron Zemo said...

Holy cow C Stanley!

You're married to Red from "That 70's Show?"

Cool.

gadfly said...

Don't miss Tom Maguire's piece today that explains that "Get off! Get off!" really means "get it on - start fighting." He also links Rachel's testimony to the careful wording provided by Martin Family lawyer Benjamin Crump as detailed by Jeralyn Merritt.

Baron Zemo said...

Michael said....
This should tell us something about the "art" of deconstruction. Knowing something about the subject can help

When has that ever stopped the Nutty Perfessor from coming up with some bullshit about something that she knows absolutely nothing about.

Are you new here?

Beloved Commenter AReasonableMan said...

bagoh20 said...
It's amazing how obvious the double standard is. Imagine if Martin was the defendant and this was the jury. The outrage would be deafening. How are these people peers of either of these men?


But the defense agreed to this jury. Presumably they ranked 'white' over 'woman'.

Baron Zemo said...

A Reasonable Man complaining about elitism?

Ha,ha,ha,ha,ha,ha,ha,ha,ha,ha,ha!

You are one crazy ass cracker!

Drago said...

ARM: "This kind of elitist attack is fundamentally anti-democratic."

LOL

It is precisely the kind of caricature attack made by the left against tea party groups as then the IRS was sicced on them in a fundamentally anti-democratic way.

And was cheered by the left...and still is....

President-Mom-Jeans said...

Traditional Bitch, what you wrote was one of the most idiotic things I have ever heard. You have absolutely no fucking clue what you are talking about.

If the state and judge weren't so terrified of all the Trayvons and Dee Dees rioting, this case should be thrown out before ever going to the jury. If the laws were faithfully applied, the prosecutor should be disbarred for bringing charges.

You and unreasonable bitch are just cheering on the lynching of a Hispanic man because its helpful to Choom. You crazy ass crackers you.

Beloved Commenter AReasonableMan said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Brian Brown said...

Keep in mind that tradguy is cheering on the DA interviewing a witness in a potential murder case in the presence of the victim's family and lawyers.

That kind of misconduct goes without comment, of course.

Patrick said...

Which is a pretty severe indictment of our entire system of justice.

Now his fate sits in the hands of "low information" trailer-court denizens, sitting in rapt attention and taking notes as they listen to a diagnosably retarded girl who can't read a letter she supposedly penned herself, and can barely speak.


I've found that juries most often get it right. The problem is that the stakes are very high, especially in a criminal trial. Even when acquitted, Defendants must pay huge legal fees. That is among the reasons prosecutors must exercise due care in their prosecutions.

test said...

bagoh20 said...
It's amazing how obvious the double standard is. Imagine if Martin was the defendant and this was the jury. The outrage would be deafening.


Similarly it's not hard to imagine a circumstance with the racial roles reversed where the person claimng self defense was never charged. In fact we don't have to imagine:

http://lawlibrary.case.edu/2012/04/11/stand-your-ground-laws/?__hstc=223762052.36429c4c43cfaf5e0773b144eb20e502.1372349551600.1372349551600.1372349551600.1&__hssc=223762052.1.1372349551600

The interesting point in this case is that literally none of the organizations gravely concerned that SYG is a license to murder uttered a peep because of this event. Not one.

Beloved Commenter AReasonableMan said...

Baron Zemo said...
A Reasonable Man complaining about elitism?

You are one crazy ass cracker!


Maybe, but that would clearly excuse me from the charge of elitism.

Eeyore Rifkin said...

The professor is correct. There's reason to doubt what was said.

Just about every native speaker of American English would first assume that "ass" was being used as an intensifier to modify the word "creepy." The professor made that point twice, so accusing her of ignorance of the way blacks talk or the way Southerners talk is bogus. It's tribal chestthumping that doesn't address her argument.

The "outside of prison..." dismissal isn't persuasive because Martin seems like the kind of guy whose language and culture was just barely outside of prison.

"Asscracker" is rare, new, and rude, but that doesn't mean Martin or Jeantel wouldn't have known the expression.

So where did this rapist idea that Jeantel spoke of come from? Is that really what what was said? (One commenter claimed she said "racist" instead of "rapist.") Hmm.

Drago said...

ARM: "Maybe, but that would clearly excuse me from the charge elitism."

Hmmm.

That raises an interesting question (well, maybe not that interesting):

Can a bona fide non-elitist behave in an elitist fashion?

For instance, garage is clearly a moron, yet because he associates himself with particular groups (both formal and informal) he then attributes characteristics of some of those group members, which he clearly lacks, to himself.

Thus, here is a case of a non-elitist behaving in an elitist way.

Or so it could be argued...if one were not so creepy-assed....

President-Mom-Jeans said...

Uh oh, looks like Dee Dee opened the door to questions about other fights by Trayvon.

That anyone thinks this witness is credible for the state is hilarious.

Things are going so badly for the prosecution that they have started ignoring the trial completely on Daily Kos.

Cedarford said...

MadisonMan said...
Nigga seems, to me, like the word Dude. All purpose.

But I'm just a crazy-ass weirdo. That being said, whatever-ass is just ass vernacular. Add ass to whatever adjective you want, and you underscore it.

Creepy-ass. Drippy-ass.

======================
Except that liberals, convinced that now and then an innocent white person must fall in the legal system to advance the more meta "Social Justice"....would be in self-righteous foaming in the mouth mode if if was GZ phoning the cops or his wife saying:

"Those niggahs always get away with it. (meaning those 'dudes' I guess)
"That creepy ass coon really has drawn my attention, he bothers me."


TO a guilty white liberal, their hearts are not troubled the least by Trayvon being the one using racial slurs and profiling in skin color....

As for Rachel Jeantel....all you need to understand about why Haiti is a 4th world nation is to observe this 1st Gen Haitian-American.


Brian Brown said...

Things are going so badly for the prosecution that they have started ignoring the trial completely on Daily Kos

I'm wondering if Prosecutor Angela Corey is going to fake her own death at this point...

bgates said...

Don't tell me "full stop" and so forth as if the presumed interpretation is the only way we can think about it.

"Cracker" is also what many computer hackers call themselves. Dee Dee was mumbling, so "crazy ass" could actually have been "Cray CX", a reference to a recent product line from the Cray computer company.

"Cray CX cracker". But who would be able to identify a computer cracker by body outline at night in the rain at a distance of 20+ yards? Perhaps someone in the NSA?

And who from the NSA just entered the news, right when this trial began - "Edward Snowden". A person no one had ever heard of before. But wait - "snow", according to the Urban Dictionary, can mean "mislead, especially by overwhelming with (mis)information; deceive; hoodwink; bamboozle.

"Edward Snowden". "Edward Snowed'em"?

"'e snowed'em"?

A young man is killed after identifying a computer saboteur, no arrest is made, and the President immediately knows about the incident; then years later when there's finally a trial another computer person comes to light operating under a name that means "He's fooling them" - Could Edward Snowden be Trayvon Martin?

Or are you people so straitjacketed into the presumed interpretation that you're going to tell me "full stop" and so forth?

traditionalguy said...

Drago...I suppose Z's gun was a Glock or one like a Glock that has no safety so that it fires when a double triggers are pulled as fast as I can be drawn.

If Z had been right and Trayvon had been a trespassing burglar type, then his use of the Glock kill shot would been praised by all. But alas it was a teenager on a cell phone call.

Maybe that's why the trained Police officers are authorized to track and confront in the dark and "don't need" Z botching up their job.

Icepick said...

I object to all these objections.

Brian Brown said...

all is well in the legal system

I love the fact that you're cheering on Crump coaching this illiterate 19 year old 12th grade to lie then misleading the court about it.

Prosecutors do that sort of shit all the time when they have strong cases.

JustOneMinute said...

I poked at the creep ass-cracker homophobe theory myself, but... I think the transcript from Mediate puts the kibosh on it:

“Yes,” Jeantel replied. “I asked him how the man looked like. He just told me the man — the man looked creepy.”

“He said the man looked creepy?” the prosecutor asked.

“Creepy, white, kill-my-neighbors cracker,” Jeantel replied, and when asked to repeat her testimony a few times, added, “He looked like a creepy ass cracker.”

“He told me the man was looking at him,” she added, “so I had to think it might have been a rapist. Might have been a rapist.”

Maybe Jeantel is offering a bit of homophobic good cheer but the first use of 'cracker' is pretty clearly in an 'evil white guy' sense.

Or maybe Trayvon engaged in a bit of wordplay and employed both uses - that seems like the sort of conversational ploy Jeantel would appreciate.

Icepick said...

Paula Deen is not alone.

I hear her book sales have shot up since she got canned from the Food Network. Of course, all those people that bought through Amazon or used credit cards or whatnot have now had that linked to their meta-data files. It will be useful in future show-trials.

Brian Brown said...


If Z had been right and Trayvon had been a trespassing burglar type, then his use of the Glock kill shot would been praised by all. But alas it was a teenager on a cell phone call.


Isn't it funny you have never bothered with, and have no interest in explaining, why Martin was walking around in the pouring down rain (the testimony yesterday said "coming down in buckets") for more than 30 minutes when it was a 10 minute walk home.

Why do you think that is?

Icepick said...

Maybe that's why the trained Police officers are authorized to track and confront in the dark and "don't need" Z botching up their job.

Given the shenanigans police in Central Florida have been up to in recent years (including in Sanford) that isn't much comfort.

gadfly said...

Commenter Rick Ballard at Just One Minute had this interesting thought on Jeantel's testimony:

BDLR has invested in drying her out to get today's high point performance from her. She expected to be able to toot it up tonight and another 16 hours could easily trigger the DTs or withdrawal.

What happens to the testimony of a witness who climbs up on a chair to get away from the giant cockroaches she sees all over the courtroom? Is it all struck or does day one remain on the record?

I hope West understands that he was questioning the "nice" Miss Jeantel today. I also hope they have a bailiff armed with a tranquilizer gun on standby.

Drago said...

Tradguy: "Drago...I suppose Z's gun was a Glock or one like a Glock that has no safety so that it fires when a double triggers are pulled as fast as I can be drawn."

So, you don't know.

That's funny. Your assertions sure sounded like you knew what you are talking about.

But you don't. You are simply making assumptions without any basis.

Thanks.

Got it.

Beloved Commenter AReasonableMan said...

Icepick said...
Maybe that's why the trained Police officers are authorized to track and confront in the dark and "don't need" Z botching up their job.

Given the shenanigans police in Central Florida have been up to in recent years (including in Sanford) that isn't much comfort.


This is why crazy-ass crackers such as myself find this case disturbing. We already have a militarized and out of control police force. Do we really want to add creepy-ass armed vigilantes to the mix. Someone innocent might get killed.

Brian Brown said...

Nothing suggests Zimmerman "confronted" Martin.

That is just a "Justice for Trayvon" narrative.

Considering every other bit of the "Justice for Trayvon" narrative has been shown to be lies or false - remember "fucking coons" and that Martin was gunned down for looking suspicious, and Zimmerman had no injuries? - we know where to rate the claim that Zimmerman 'confronted' Martin.

Icepick said...

Why do you think that is?

Ghetto shuffle. Wanting to talk to his girl without the adults around. Wanting some space. Whatever. None of that means he was casing anything.

It also doesn't mean he WASN'T casing the place. Which is the problem with trying to determine what was going on in his or in Z's head.

Drago said...

ARM: "We already have a militarized and out of control police force."

We also have a militarized and out of control gang problem.

Populated by minorities.

And lots of innocents, especially minorities, are killed by these gang members.

But there is no political gain for the left in all that.

Hence: silence...

Brian Brown said...

Icepick,

there were no adults at the townhouse he was staying in at the time he was out.

They were out to dinner.

traditionalguy said...

Michael....You may be right that a hung jury will be the result from a jury of 6 white women. Women are often harder to convince than men. But it could become a negotiated conviction of a lesser charge.

The opening statement set out the charge of malice shooting, and none of the three female eye and ear witnesses have testified to a different version of events although several were not 100% sure what they saw.

The jurors will need Z to convince them he was not a killer with a convenient story of his own.

Z will need to be authentic...as once said, "once sincerity is mastered, an actor has it made."

If Z does not testify or seems sneaky/creepy in his retelling of his first story, then that will do him in.

Drago said...

tradguy: "The jurors will need Z to convince them he was not a killer with a convenient story of his own."

Certainly worked for OJ.

Oh, wait....

Brian Brown said...

and none of the three female eye and ear witnesses have testified to a different version of events although several were not 100% sure what they saw.


Actually, all 3 said different things on the stand in comparison to what they said to the police, state, and defense.

This is all documented.

That's a pretty pathetic lie, even by your standards.

President-Mom-Jeans said...

Traditionalbitch, you are a fucking moron.

Zimmerman need do no such thing. There is zero chance he will be taking the stand. You have absolutely no idea what you are talking about regarding burden of proof, which the judge will repeatedly be instructing the jury on.

Are you as ignorant as Dee Dee? I bet you can't read cursive.

Brian Brown said...

The list of misinformation, fabrications, lies and distortions in this case grows every day.

Perhaps that is why Angela Corey is basically MIA

Beloved Commenter AReasonableMan said...

Drago said...
We also have a militarized and out of control gang problem.


I'm not minimizing this problem.

Drago said...

ARM: "I'm not minimizing this problem."

I know.

I'm just sayin'.....

Brian Brown said...

The jurors will need Z to convince them he was not a killer with a convenient story of his own.


This is preposterous and idiotic.

The state has to convince 6 jurors beyond a reasonable doubt that when Zimmerman shot Martin he did it as an act imminently dangerous to another and evincing a depraved mind showing no regard for human life. Meaning, the defendant deliberately, and with so little justification as to be reckless, engaged in conduct that puts others at obvious risk of death or great bodily harm.

Zimmerman has to show no proof of anything and has no burden.
The defense may not even put on a case.

What is even funnier about your running vomit is that the the Sanford PD NWP coordinator testified that Martin's behavior would be described as "suspicious"

Matt Sablan said...

Jay: I believe the one who heard three shots was consistent; the problem is her version is inconsistent with the facts that are known.

Segesta said...

Someone remind me which political party benefits by having more, rather than fewer, Rachels in the world.

traditionalguy said...

The digital generation is always double tasking on cell phone calls and whatever. I find myself wandering in circles around the office hallways when on cell phone calls...why I can't say.

Perhaps it helps me think and calms my nerves while listening patiently to dumb lawyers threatening me. It helps me not to say bad words at them and frighten the secretaries.

I just say, " why are you threatening me" like Trayvon said "why are you following me" and did not add "creepy white cracker" to his question.

Drago said...

Mathew Sablan: "Jay: I believe the one who heard three shots was consistent; the problem is her version is inconsistent with the facts that are known."

It seems to me that at the rate he's going, Tradguy will have Zimmerman running down Martin in a car then spraying him with fully-automatic weapons fire at point blank range before it's all said and done.

Anonymous said...

"The digital generation is always double tasking on cell phone calls and whatever. I find myself wandering in circles around the office hallways when on cell phone calls...why I can't say.

Perhaps it helps me think and calms my nerves while listening patiently to dumb lawyers threatening me. It helps me not to say bad words at them and frighten the secretaries.

I just say, " why are you threatening me" like Trayvon said "why are you following me" and did not add "creepy white cracker" to his question."

6/27/13, 11:59 AM

Ah Trad Guy, this is why I love ya. Dumb wanna be fake Internet lawyers like PMJ?

Drago said...

Tradguy: "I just say, " why are you threatening me" like Trayvon said "why are you following me" and did not add "creepy white cracker" to his question."

Tradguy forgot the rest: 'When I don't like the answers I'm provided, I proceed to sucker punch the guy, get him on the ground, climb on top of him, and begin to bang his skull against the concrete. Boy am I ever surprised when the guy pulls a gun from who knows where and then puts a round into me! I. Did. Not. See. That. Coming. From. That. Crazy-ass. Looking. Cracker!!!'

Brian Brown said...

Matthew,

the woman testified it was raining so hard that she had to shut her windows then heard 3 shots.

Consistent, sure, credible? No.

President-Mom-Jeans said...

And the filthy flappy old cunt rolls out of bed. Crack of noon, eh bitch?

Sleep off that hangover? May your inevitable death from liver failure be slow, painful, and hopefully cost the taxpayers as little money as possible.

lemondog said...

Video
Cracker Ass Cracker - Chris Rock Bigger and Blacker

Wiki again on cracker:

Another theory holds that slave foremen in the antebellum South used bullwhips to discipline African slaves, with such use of the whip being described as "cracking the whip". The white foremen who cracked these whips thus became known as "crackers".[5][6][7][8]

They are called by the town's-people, "Crackers," from the frequency with which they crack their large whips, as if they derived a peculiar pleasure from the sound"[9]

Chris Rocks cab routine with the white man riding and kicking (presumably cracking the whip) the black man, appears to tie into the Wiki definitions, that is the white man whipping the black man. Cracker ass-cracker.

Brian Brown said...

traditionalguy said...
The digital generation is always double tasking on cell phone calls and whatever. I find myself wandering in circles around the office hallways when on cell phone calls...why


And now hallways are standing outside in rain storms.

That is even more pathetic drivel.

Are you here to beclown yourself?

Steve Koch said...

It is likely that this death is the result of two guys in an escalating confrontation in which neither guy would back down. Once the guy on the bottom lost and was getting his head banged on the concrete, it wasn't surprising that he used a gun to survive. This kind of conflict is extremely common in the USA, the only thing unusual about this particular fight was that the prez decided to get involved.

Matt Sablan said...

I think you could hear a gunshot through a closed window; I think though this is the prosecution's main problem. Their witnesses all saw different things. In isolation, any one of them would at least have a case against Zimmerman. But, as you layer them on, you find more and more that "Well, if there were three shots, then so-and-so can't have done such-and-such," leading us to at least reasonable doubt.

Brian Brown said...

traditionalguy said...
The digital generation is always double tasking on cell phone calls and whatever


As I said, you have never bothered with, and have no interest in explaining, why Martin was walking around in the pouring down rain (the testimony yesterday said "coming down in buckets") for more than 30 minutes when it was a 10 minute walk home.

Why do you think that is?

Drago said...

Jay: "Why do you think that is?"

Tradguy will probably tell us it's easier to multitask in a driving rainstorm.

Duh!

traditionalguy said...

Jay...The burden of proof train left the station after Opening Argument and three corroborating witnesses.

Now what does the Z defense team do? So far they are just grandstanding to their client and his support group that is paying their fees. And will still be paying them after conviction, motion for new trial, through sentencing, appeal and motion for sentence reduction.

That is why they will not put Z on the stand to win it. Their goal is not to be blamed when they lose it...it will have been those lying witnesses and racist white jurors.

Brian Brown said...

I'm not sure if I've witnessed anyone on these threads be more willfully blind to the actual facts of this case than traditionalguy.

The woman posting under the "Areasonableman" handle is close, but not quite there.

Brian Brown said...

Jay...The burden of proof train left the station after Opening Argument and three corroborating witnesses.

As I said, I think you're just here to beclown yourself.

There are and were not "three corroborating witnesses" in this case.

President-Mom-Jeans said...

"The burden of proof train left the station after Opening Argument and three corroborating witnesses."

What third tier toilet of a law school do you claim to have gone too?

Whatever money they charged you, you got ripped off.


Matt Sablan said...

"Jay...The burden of proof train left the station after Opening Argument and three corroborating witnesses."

-- The witnesses did not corroborate. They saw different people on top, different weather conditions, heard different people yelling different things, and heard different numbers of gun shots and intensity of fighting.

Anonymous said...

Perhaps PMJ will recover from the fungus growth from years of living in damp basements, come out into the fresh air and sunshine PMJ, it will clear the mushrooms that grow in your cranium.

Traditional Guy is a REAL lawyer, a real man, take a lesson PMJ, model yourself after this decent human being, there is hope, all is not lost.

Some people here have lives out on the fresh air, on the water, gardening, loving their families, shopping, cooking, etc. Try it PMJ, it's fun.

Matt Sablan said...

As a side note: I'm not a lawyer. But I do play one on my 3DS.

Icepick said...

As I said, you have never bothered with, and have no interest in explaining, why Martin was walking around in the pouring down rain (the testimony yesterday said "coming down in buckets") for more than 30 minutes when it was a 10 minute walk home.

And so what if he was? Martin didn't have a right to walk around?

I'll add that walking around in the rain isn't the best way to case a neighborhood, either, especially if you're on the phone the entire time being distracted by your idiot girlfriend.

Brian Brown said...

"three corroborating witnesses"

Nobody commenting on the matter has uttered anything close to being this stupid.

Here is one of these witnesses this goofball is bragging about.

She changed her story on the witness stand (she said for the 1st time she heard running "from left to right")


Note:
O'Mara showed Bahadoor another transcript of a statement she made on March 20, 2012. He asked her to again point him to where she said there was a "movement going from left to right."

She was unable to find mention of that in the transcript.


"It wasn't mentioned," Bahadoor said.



and she was revealed to have e-signed a Trayvon Change.org "Prosecute the killer of our son" petition

Isn't it funny how bankrupt the justice for Trayvon narrative is?

Brian Brown said...

And so what if he was? Martin didn't have a right to walk around?


Nobody is talking about "rights"

Martin was not on the phone "the whole time"

Brian Brown said...

I'll add that walking around in the rain isn't the best way to case a neighborhood, either

Actually in the dark, it is.

Brian Brown said...

The narrative was that Martin was just walking home from the store and "profiled" by Zimmerman.

That is a silly bullshit lie.

Michael said...

Traditional Guy: Thanks for the response. It will be interesting to hear the judges instructions at the end and to see whether or not she narrows the tunnel through which the decision must travel. One wants to believe in the jury system but then one is confronted with the unbelievable lack of education, the raw stupidity, afoot.

garage mahal said...

Always love to hear legal commentary from PMJ, the fake internet lawyer, and Jay, who pretends to know law.

jr565 said...

This from althouse is the key question that, in my mind, shows the Trayvon was the instigator:

She describes how Martin was "right by his father's house" after he lost Zimmerman, and refused to run home. And how he then wound up back at the crime scene.
If Zimmerman were stalking him he would have found him at his fathers house and not back at the crime scene.

MayBee said...

I think Rachel was cat fishing Trayvon as Dee-Dee, a cute 16 year old girl.

President-Mom-Jeans said...

Ramble on you old cow, unfortunately for you it doesn't look like Zimmerman will be getting the Nakoula railroading treatment, at least not in this trial.

Who knows what trumped up bullshit charges Eric "My People" Holder will come up with after the not guilty verdict comes back.

I look forward to taunting your decrepit saggy disability mooching ass in a few weeks when the verdict comes back. Same with the parody account traditional twat and unreasonable bitch.

President-Mom-Jeans said...

Awww, Bitchtits, I know you don't like anything dealing with court proceedings, brings back too many painful memories of when you lost custody of your child in the divorce?

Hey, Dee Dee is single now that Trayvon is wormfood, and she shares your intellectual level and disease of obesity. Maybe you should ask her out.

She doesn't seem to like crazy ass crackers though.

Drago said...

Blogger Matthew Sablan: "- The witnesses did not corroborate. They saw different people on top, different weather conditions, heard different people yelling different things, and heard different numbers of gun shots and intensity of fighting."

Yes, but other than all that...corroborated!!!

kentuckyliz said...

She said on the stand that cracker referred to white person, Caucasian. She didn't say ass cracker refers to a gay male rapist.

And yes, those exist. There was a lot of M2M rape going on in my university town when I was in college. So I have never fallen for the all gays are peaceful rainbow unicorn fantasy. Some drug and rape straight guys.

Cedarford said...

Meanwhile, in Chicago, two young thugs were at a commuter rail station, sneaking up behind, then grabbing cell phones.
Two men gave chase and nabbed one of the perps and called police. Meanwhile a crowd of other young thugs and thugstresses gathered and after 15 minutes of no cops arriving ...they dismissed the warning to stay off this matter because the cops were coming and went at Whitey to exact some social justice.

When cops did arrive, amazingly, they found the whites beaten unconscious from blows by fists, clubs or sticks, feet of the 15-18 thugs and thugstresses that swarmed them.

Cops got two of the blacks in the pack and arrested them for aggravated assault. The two robbed whites are in the hospital.

Brian Brown said...

Wendy Dorival, former coordinator of the Sanford Police Department's neighborhood watch program, testified Tuesday that Martin's behavior walking in the rain between town homes was "suspicious"

Dr.KennethNoisewater said...

Apparently the prosecution is blaming Martin's apparent over active homophobia for his confrontation with Zimmerman, and ultimately his death. If he had just been more tolerant, he might still be alive today.

Yes, he really showed his intolerance getting murdered like that. Homophobe.

Jesus, do any of you fucknuts READ what you write?

Brian Brown said...

When will the "Justice for Trayvon" crowd open themselves up to the idea that they fell for a race-hustling ruse?

Brian Brown said...

Dr.KennethNoisewater said...

Yes, he really showed his intolerance getting murdered like that. Homophobe.


Nobody said he showed his intolerance by getting murdered.

Do you read what you write?

Drago said...

Jay: "When will the "Justice for Trayvon" crowd open themselves up to the idea that they fell for a race-hustling ruse?"

Never.

They still believe Tawana and Chrystal.

Matt Sablan said...

... Wait, I missed the part where she couldn't read the letter she allegedly wrote. I thought, initially, when I heard reports, that meant she was not being allowed to read it in court. Not that she literally could not read her own alleged letter.

... But, hey, totally trustworthy, unimpeachable hedgehog of a witness, right?

Anonymous said...

In the South, at least, Bad-ass is a very macho and supremely accomplished man.

Example:
He's a bad-ass guitar player/sniper/fighter.

Drago said...



Dr.KennethNoisewater: "Yes, he really showed his intolerance getting murdered like that. Homophobe. Jesus, do any of you fucknuts READ what you write?"

LOL

Do you want to try again?

Brian Brown said...

I love the fact that tradguy thinks witnesses testifying they heard a gunshot and called 911 is hard hitting and damaging to the defense.

test said...

traditionalguy said...
Jay...The burden of proof train left the station after Opening Argument and three corroborating witnesses.


This can't be serious from someone involved in the legal system. The opening argument is not evidence, and none of the witnesses testified as to the legal point in question.

Brian Brown said...

They still believe Tawana and Chrystal.

Yep.

The sad fact of the matter is that the trial is going to set back race relations more than the state not making an arrest would have.

Brian Brown said...


This can't be serious from someone involved in the legal system


I know.

Keep in mind who is cheering him on:
Inga said...

Traditional Guy is a REAL lawyer, a real man,


Case closed!

Ann Althouse said...

Catfishing? I had to tlook that up in UrbanDictionary.

Top definition: 299 up, 81 down

"The phenomenon of internet predators that fabricate online identities and entire social circles to trick people into emotional/romantic relationships (over a long period of time)."

Okay, I get it. But that second definition -- 86 up, 192 down -- is hilarious:

"To have one large pubic hair protruding from one's zipper, whether purposely or by accident. The term comes from the long barbels, or whiskers that stick out from the mouths of catfish. While the whiskers of catfish house their taste buds and are used to search for food in murky waters, the act of catfishing will only serve to make you look like a complete slob, oblivious airhead, or creepy perv."

That's creepy-ass perv to you, buddy.

test said...

Dr.KennethNoisewater said...
Yes, he really showed his intolerance getting murdered like that. Homophobe.

Jesus, do any of you fucknuts READ what you write?


Althouse already has its quota of leftists who ridiculously and intentionally misunderstand to justify their cartoonish views. Move along.

Brian Brown said...

Wendy Dorival, coordinator for Sanford PD Neighborhood Watch:

Dorival: "George was very professional, a little meek, really wanted to make community better"

Dorival: "I wanted to recruit George to be Citizen on Patrol."

West: "So if they see ANYTHING unusual, they are to err on side of calling PD? Dorival: "Yes".

West: "Is someone walking in rain without apparent purpose suspicious?" Dorival: "Yes".

West: "Zimmerman contacted your boss to praise your efforts? " Dorival: "Yes".

Dorival: It's Good Neighborhood Watch practice to follow suspicious person from a distance

This jury may only deliberate 30 minutes.

Brian Brown said...

Angela Corey has to be happy that Aaron Hernandez was arrested and that Paula Deen is still making news...

MayBee said...

That is hilarious.

traditionalguy said...

jr565 wants to know why Travon was at home and never went inside, but stayed outside. That is arguing the best defense which is of doubt from an unknown.

That will help Z greatly if Z wins the jurors over to liking him. But Z will have to do that since no one likes Z's lawyers by now.

Where is the Mr Rogers like, child psychologist approach, sort of a doofus but a really nice guy we saw in West's opening statement?

He has given that likeability factor away for assuming a harsh trickster persona that adds to the defendant as victim plea of his client.

Now only Z can save Z.

Joe Biden, America's Putin said...

This whole trial is a sham.

How did Travon end up on top of Zimmerman?

traditionalguy said...

Marshall...The Opening statement forms the jurors first impression of the reason they are there. They drink it in eagerly.

No one changes their first impressions easily after that. It takes a better presented opening to do that. The theory of waiting until the boring evidence is all in doesn't happen, although they jury stays alert to any major narrative fails.

That is why jurors who have no prior knowledge of the case are acceptable and the others struck for cause (as long as they are not damn perfectionists such as engineers, lawyers, law professors, or Althouse commenters.)

Joe Biden, America's Putin said...

Rachel Jeantel may not be stupid, but she is clearly a product of the American Education system.

Beloved Commenter AReasonableMan said...

Matthew Sablan said...
... Wait, I missed the part where she couldn't read the letter she allegedly wrote.


There is no allegation that she wrote it. She quite clearly stated that she had a friend write the letter.

Matt Sablan said...

Ah. So the argument is just that she doesn't know what is said in the letter that she wrote; let me see if I can find where she says a friend wrote it.

Either way then, we should either call to the stand the person who DID write the letter, or I wouldn't consider it worth anything. If she can't read it, it could have said ANYTHING and she'd not know.

Matt Sablan said...

Wrote, of course, being used as in, is the author of, not the physical pen to paper person here.

Roger J. said...

I am curious Professor--have you ever litigated a case? I respect your views on constitutional issues. But have you ever been in a courtroom arguing a case from either the prosecution or defendant' side?

Patrick said...

That is why jurors who have no prior knowledge of the case are acceptable and the others struck for cause

Jurors with knowledge of a particular case are not struck for cause. They will only be struck for cause if they cannot put aside anything they've heard, and focus only on the evidence presented at trial. This is common of course in high profile trials.

Drago said...

ARM: "There is no allegation that she wrote it. She quite clearly stated that she had a friend write the letter."

I happen to be most impressed with her ability to hear "grass" and "wet grass" over the cell phone.

Impressive indeed.

Sort of a wunderkind.

Like an Einstein.

Only educated in the US.

Not like that other Einstein.

Sssshhhhh, don't tell garage...

Beloved Commenter AReasonableMan said...

I agree with traditionalguy that Don West has done a poor job over the last day or so. I thought the other defense lawyer was more effective in the previous days testimony.

Icepick said...

The narrative was that Martin was just walking home from the store and "profiled" by Zimmerman.

That is a silly bullshit lie.


And you are constructing your own narrative, based on very little evidence.

And yes, whether or not Martin had the right to walk around that area is in question, because you are stating that the fact that he did so without going straight home means that he was casing the place.

And I don't see how walking around in the rain helps case the place. It obscures what you can see and hear. It would be useful if one were breaking into a place, but there's no evidence that Martin had done so.

X said...

an all female jury increases the chances of feelings becoming the most genuine path to a verdict. so the prosecution has that going for them.

Icepick said...

Wendy Dorival, former coordinator of the Sanford Police Department's neighborhood watch program, testified Tuesday that Martin's behavior walking in the rain between town homes was "suspicious"

No shit. That still doesn't make it criminal.

Matt Sablan said...

I think the point of making the behavior suspicious is that it makes it more understandable WHY Zimmerman might think it is suspicious, which hurts the "Racist Head Hunter" image the prosecution is trying to create.

Drago said...

Icepick: "That still doesn't make it criminal."

Well, then it's good that no one is making that argument.

Do you have any other strawmen you'd like to knock down?

Might as well get it all out of your system.

Known Unknown said...

No shit. That still doesn't make it criminal.

Irrelevant.

The entire question hinges on who initiated the physical confrontation and whether or not Zimmerman was within his rights of self-defense to fire his weapon.

Do I think this was a fuck-up on the part of two less-than-brilliant people? Yes, definitely. Murder 2? Simply, no.

Cedarford said...

West: "So if they see ANYTHING unusual, they are to err on side of calling PD? Dorival: "Yes".

West: "Is someone walking in rain without apparent purpose suspicious?" Dorival: "Yes".

West: "Zimmerman contacted your boss to praise your efforts? " Dorival: "Yes".

Dorival: It's Good Neighborhood Watch practice to follow suspicious person from a distance

This jury may only deliberate 30 minutes.

====================
All this was well known to the State, which for political reasons kow-towed to the black racists, leftists, progressive Jews, and really stupid white guys like Trad Guy and "a reasonable man".

And given justice is pretty much a racket by, of, and for only lawyers to pursue wealth and/or personal power....who can be surprised that the Government's lawyers only care about that...and not their targets innocence.

The Graf Zepplin of Florida DAs, Angela Corey, is just another Nifong.

Brian Brown said...

Icepick said...

No shit. That still doesn't make it criminal.


And, it proves Martin was just not "walking home"

And, it shows Zimmerman was reasonable in both being suspicious and calling the police.

Drago said...

Jay: "This jury may only deliberate 30 minutes."

Unless they are products of public school system.

In which case they probably can't read cursive.

So it will take a bit longer in that case...

Brian Brown said...

Look, we can argue over whether or not Zimmerman should have exited his vehicle or been (perhaps a bit over) zealous in trying to get police to the scene, but there is simply no fucking way he "stalked" or "detained" or was "out of his mind depraved angry" here.

He should have never been charged with Murder 2.

That is the only point I'm trying to make in reposting this testimony.

And, every bit, not some, not part, every, of the narrative that the "justice for Trayvon" people have put forth has been shown to be a lie.

pst314 said...

Ann Althouse "I then go on to say there is an alternate explanation [of 'creepy-ass cracker'] and that it explains Jeantel's "rapist" idea and Martin's decision to confront."

How so? The video shows the witness acknowledging that "cracker" meant "white person", which seems to rule out your parsing.

Icepick said...


Well, then it's good that no one is making that argument.


Jay has been making the argument that Martin was casing the place. Others have made that point in other threads.

It is possible that is exactly what was happening, but it isn't PROOF that this is what was happening.

People want to construct narratives. I've even constructed my own. But I'm not selling mine as the truth, nor am I selling it as justification for Zimmerman shooting Martin, as Roger J did the other day.

If Martin's behavior was suspicious, and it was, then one doesn't need to go further and make claims that Martin absolutely WAS engaging in one activity over another. It's useless speculation.

...

I can also add that following a pedestrian around in a truck, and then getting out of the truck to follow someone around in the dark into areas hidden from view of the street is suspicious behavior too.

Brian Brown said...

All this was well known to the State, which for political reasons kow-towed to the black racists, leftists, progressive Jews, and really stupid white guys like Trad Guy and "a reasonable man".

Well, losing didn't really hurt Marcia Clark's career, I wonder what it would do to Angela Corey's?

Brian Brown said...

Jay has been making the argument that Martin was casing the place.

NO, I'm merely pointing out that the narrative people like tradguy believe is a lie.

I am saying Zimmerman was not some out of control wannabe cope with a gun menacing his neighborhood and an "innoncent" teen.

That's all.

Drago said...

Jay: "And, every bit, not some, not part, every, of the narrative that the "justice for Trayvon" people have put forth has been shown to be a lie"

Hey man, that's just because the actual facts do not align with what the lefties so desperately need.

No matter. The left answers to a higher "truth".

Why?

Probably because they "feel" the facts should be as they "need" them.

After all, the left is on the side of the angels.

Except the left tells us there are no angels.

But if angels did exist, they would be on the side of those that deny their existence.

Icepick said...

And, it shows Zimmerman was reasonable in both being suspicious and calling the police.

Find where I said Zimmerman wasn't being reasonable when he was suspicious of Martin's behavior. My statement is that you can't go from suspicious behavior to claiming that Martin was casing the neighborhood without something more to go on. He was an idiot kid and a thug-wannabe, but that doesn't mean his every action was with criminal intent. Even No Limit Niggas take a night off every now and then.

The big problem is that you keep claiming the other side's narrative is based on innuendo, supposition and wish fulfillment while doing the same damned thing yourself.

Drago said...

Icepick: "Jay has been making the argument that Martin was casing the place. Others have made that point in other threads."

LOL

No, they haven't.

I'm beginning to see why you're having such difficulty here....

AllenS said...

Isn't Rachel Jeantel a typical stereotype?

Beloved Commenter AReasonableMan said...

Cedarford
West: "Is someone walking in rain without apparent purpose suspicious?


By this standard Zimmerman's behavior was 'suspicious'.

Brian Brown said...

can't go from suspicious behavior to claiming that Martin was casing the neighborhood

I didn't say he was casing the neighborhood.

I said it would be a good night to do so.

I don't think this 17 year old twice suspended pot-smoking genius was an ace burglar, ok?

I am merely pointing out that he was not innoncently walking down the sidewalk, ok?

Drago said...

ARM: "By this standard Zimmerman's behavior was 'suspicious'."

And yet trayvon didn't call the police to report this suspicious Zimmerman behavior.

Brian Brown said...

AReasonableMan said...

By this standard Zimmerman's behavior was 'suspicious'.


Are you here too, to beclown yourself?

This is dumber than a lot of the shit tradguy has written.

Brian Brown said...

No matter. The left answers to a higher "truth".

I know, Drago.

These people need to believe their fellow citizens gun down black kids for shits & giggles.

Its a sickness.

President-Mom-Jeans said...

I get it icepick, you are scared of the Dee Dee's and Trayvons in your neighborhood's propensity for violence and your safety when the verdict comes out.

You should have ample warning of when the verdict will be announced, why don't you just take a little drive that day? Doesn't have to be expensive, hell just get on a bus and head to somewhere a bit less "diverse" for a day or two. Go hiking or camping in the woods, very inexpensive, and nothing to loot so should be safe.

Shouldn't take more than a few days before the rioters are put down or tire themselves out.

Known Unknown said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Roger J. said...

ARM--no. Zimmerman's purpose, as near as I can understand, was to function as a watch person. Nothing suggests to me otherwise. A watch person is required to be out in the elements. YMMV of course.

Known Unknown said...

I am merely pointing out that he was not innoncently walking down the sidewalk, ok?

Actually he was innocently walking down the sidewalk, since he was not committing a crime by being on a phone in the rain.

Like I said above, the only thing that matters is the physical confrontation.

I have reasonable doubt that Zimmerman commited second degree murder.

Remember, that's the charge the verdict has to meet.

Brian Brown said...

AReasonableMan said...

By this standard Zimmerman's behavior was 'suspicious'.


Zimmerman's purpose is both documented and widely known.

Why do you say such dumb things about this case?

Brian Brown said...

Actually he was innocently walking down the sidewalk, since he was not committing a crime by being on a phone in the rain.


He was not on the sidewalk.

Rabel said...

Damn. I was really hoping the T-Mobile ad girl would testify.

Beloved Commenter AReasonableMan said...

Roger J. said...
ARM--no. Zimmerman's purpose, as near as I can understand, was to function as a watch person. Nothing suggests to me otherwise. A watch person is required to be out in the elements.


Here in lies much of the problem with this case. Zimmerman's role is very ambiguous. Neither the home owner's association or neighborhood watch agree with your characterization.

Brian Brown said...

As to the physical confrontation, here is what the statute says:


776.041 Use of force by aggressor.— The justification described in the preceding sections of this chapter [Justifiable use of force] is not available to a person who:

Initially provokes the use of force against himself or herself, unless:

(a) Such force is so great that the person reasonably believes that he or she is in imminent danger of death or great bodily harm and that he or she has exhausted every reasonable means to escape such danger other than the use of force, which is likely to cause death or great bodily harm to the assailant


So who knows how the jury will try to unwrap the fight...

Roger J. said...

ARM--that's fine with me--were I a watch person, I would regard it as my duty. YMMV of course. It does appear to me that based on testimony from the neighborhood watch coordinator that Mr Zimmerman was good at what he did.

Brian Brown said...

Here in lies much of the problem with this case. Zimmerman's role is very ambiguous

Actually, no it isn't.

Zimmerman was driving to the grocery store.

Zimmerman sees a young male in a hoodie walking between a row of town homes as if he was peering in the windows. Observes this and calls the police.

test said...

AReasonableMan said...

By this standard Zimmerman's behavior was 'suspicious'.


ARM thinks someone could have called Zimmerman in for suspicious activity. So what if they had? It's not relevant to anything and shows ARM is only interested in throwing shit on the wall to see what sticks.

traditionalguy said...

Z and the neighborhood watchers do think that all un identified foot traffic has to be purposeful appearing or it is suspicious. cell phone wandering calls, what are they?

Just wandering about is not disciplined enough for the Neighborhood watch that is designed for the old folks neighborhoods. They say call the Police to come and jack up strangers.

But Z wanted to be this neighborhood's hero. He needed a purpose too. And the damn Cops were always letting suspicious black men he IDed get away.

But Z forgot he had no authority to track strange men in the dark and shoot them if they needed shooting.

So Z had begun to do what Crackers did after the 1920s KKK meetings. And those days are over. That is why the Martin's felt so betrayed when no police charges were made in the death. Everyone understood that.

Maybe I really am turning into one of C4's Progressive Jews. My Law School always comes in about 20 on the USNWR lists, and many of my Professors there were progressive Jews. Pleses nobody tell the PCUSA.

Patrick said...

West: "Is someone walking in rain without apparent purpose suspicious?

By this standard Zimmerman's behavior was 'suspicious'


Maybe initially so, but we know his motivation, because he called the police and told them. We don't know, and probably never will know what Martin was doing. the difference is that Zimmerman need not prove what Martin was doing. It would help him of course, to show a plausible explanation, but he does not have the burden.

Brian Brown said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
AllenS said...

traditionalguy said...
The Opening statement forms the jurors first impression of the reason they are there. They drink it in eagerly.

I'm not a lawyer, but I've been a juror quite a few times. May I ask what type of law you specialize in, and have you ever been a juror? A lot of what you a proffering is absolute nonsense from my point of view based solely on my court room experiences.

Brian Brown said...

And the damn Cops were always letting suspicious black men he IDed get away.


What is even funnier about this is the Sanford PD NWP Coordinator who testified is...black.

You're become a parody on this Web site.

PS: A 17 year old black male was recently arrested in Zimmerman's neighborhood for burglary by...being followed by civilians.

test said...

traditionalguy said...
Maybe I really am turning into one of C4's Progressive Jews.


No, you're turning into Cedarford: asserting conclusions you have no evidence to support other than race based speculation.

Patrick said...

Traditional guy, you seem to know an awful lot about what Zimmerman thinks. At least you believe you know what he thinks.

Matt Sablan said...

As a note, the prosecution's witnesses stated that they heard no anger/frustration in Zimmerman when talking about the ones who got away.

President-Mom-Jeans said...

Non Traditional Bitch you are completely full of shit.

You most certainly did not attend a good law school (if at all), I doubt you are Jewish, although you may be one of the "crackers" you nonsensically ramble about regarding the kkk.

Your bigotry against Hispanics is noted, although you haven't come out with the same naked expression of it like the woman who posts as Unreasonablebitch did when she used the homophobic slur "faggot."

«Oldest ‹Older   201 – 400 of 570   Newer› Newest»