June 27, 2013

What accounts for this sudden and shocking spike in bigotry?

"A year and a half ago, even the president of the United States opposes gay marriage.  President Bill Clinton, a Democrat, signed DOMA into law.  Now all of a sudden, after Obama changes his mind, the whole country supports gay marriage, and those who don't are bigots."

What accounts for this sudden and shocking spike in bigotry?

It depends on what the meaning of bigotry is. (To paraphrase that humanitarian, Bill Clinton.)



But — to quote Marbury v. Madison — as quoted in the DOMA case, United States v. Windsor, "‘[i]t is emphatically the province and duty of the judicial department to say what the law is.’ ” Zivotofsky v. Clinton, 566 U. S. ___, ___ (2012) (slip op., at 7) (quoting Marbury v. Madison, 1 Cranch 137, 177 (1803))." (I know, who quotes Marbury like that? And what the hell was Zivotofsky v. Clinton? Was there some insuperable urge to bring up Bill Clinton? The Clinton in Zivotofsky was Hillary Clinton, in her Secretary of State role, and this was the case about the State Department's refusal to list Israel as the place of birth on a U.S. passport for a person born in Jerusalem.)

So if it's the Court's duty to define the terms, and opposition to same-sex marriage is defined as nothing but bigotry, then it's the Court's decision in Windsor that accounts for the sudden and shocking spike in bigotry.

But let's be clear about a few things.

1. The majority opinion in Windsor did not use the word "bigotry" (or "bigot"). That word appears in Chief Justice Roberts's dissenting opinion: "At least without some more convincing evidence that the Act’s principal purpose was to codify malice, and that it furthered no legitimate government interests, I would not tar the political branches with the brush of bigotry." Justice Alito also uses the word: "Acceptance of [Windsor's] argument would cast all those who cling to traditional beliefs about the nature of marriage in the role of bigots or superstitious fools."

2.  The majority's expression is "a bare congressional desire to harm a politically unpopular group," which might sound extreme, but it appears in the case law going back to the early 70s, and it's a stock phrase used to characterize the government's interest when the Court is applying minimal scrutiny and therefore needs to say that there is no legitimate governmental interest.

3. What that "bare... desire to harm" language really means is: We don't want to have to heighten scrutiny for this discriminated-against group — they don't want responsibility for what that would mean in future cases — but we do want to be able to strike this down while staying at the minimal scrutiny level.

4. This doctrinal maneuver produces the strange impression that the Court is calling Bill Clinton and the majority of the members of the 104th Congress a bunch of bigots.

5. Now lots of traditionalists have the raw material to whine and cry about being called bigots. I doubt if that will work out very well for them, but they've been stewing in their own juice for a long time, and they're going to find it hard to stop. Unfortunately, same-sex marriage was originally presented as a conservative idea, and traditionalists could have gotten out in front of liberals on this issue if they'd listened to the original argument and predicted the future better, and now they'll have to scramble to improve their image. If they think crying about being called bigots — when, again, the majority didn't even use that word — is going to help, I just have to laugh. You took the opportunity to oppress when it was there, and now that it's gone, you want to say you are oppressed. Man up, losers. You lost. And you deserved to lose. Now, stop acting like losers. If you can. (I bet you can't!)

476 comments:

«Oldest   ‹Older   401 – 476 of 476
Bleach Drinkers Curing Coronavirus Together said...

Because of the gay marriage ruling, midgets will be marrying donkeys. Look at what we've opened the door to. Just look at it.

Matt said...

Inga

Yep. Makes sense to me. Ann has fun with words but her views on gay rights have always seemed pretty unequivocal.

Anonymous said...

Yes Matt, and she's taken big hits from her commenters for it.

jr565 said...

And you who philosophize disgrace
And criticize all fear
Bury the rag deep in your face
For now is the time for your tears.

Althouse reaction:

Loser!"Now stop acting like losers. If you can. (I bet you can't!)"

Methadras said...

Rhythm and Balls said...

Because of the gay marriage ruling, midgets will be marrying donkeys. Look at what we've opened the door to. Just look at it.


I think you are nothing more than a nonsense person. Yes, you consume the same air I do unfortunately, but I wonder if you are this way in person.

jr565 said...

Rhythm wrote:

Because of the gay marriage ruling, midgets will be marrying donkeys. Look at what we've opened the door to. Just look at it.

I didn't say WILL. I asked where society should fall on such a question. And I didn't even bring in animals. Things like incestual couples or polygamous relationships are real ones.
Again, I realize that you can't answer the question, but your equivocating is getting obnoxious.

Bleach Drinkers Curing Coronavirus Together said...

Yes, you consume the same air I do unfortunately, but I wonder if you are this way in person.

So, you're the reason my air's been smelling so bad!

jr565 said...

If though there were a man who wanted to marry a donkey and said society should honor his marriage I can imagine a primary objection. Donkeys can't sign documents . But the counter to that is, donkeys can't sign documents if you use them as a riding animal, or et them, or beat them, or even have sex with them. Since we can do all those things without getting approval from the donkey, the donkey agreeing to it is irrelevant.
And besides, we've alreadyynestwblished that marriage isn't about kids anymore, but love. Who are you to tell someone they can't love a donkey.

Some people love their pets like family members. Why then not allow for a marriage if that's what someone wants even if its symbolic only. Who are you, or who is society to say that that must be an invalid relationship and that the person can't go before city hall and get a license.

jr565 said...

Here's an example of a woman who married a dolphin:
http://www.theage.com.au/news/world/woman-marries-dolphin/2006/01/01/1136050339590.html

If that's allowed, why not a donkey?

Bob said...

I had always considered Ann a class act in the past but her post proves otherwise. SSM supporters have always come across as drama queens when they didn't get there way and classless in victory. I'll chalk this up to mommy being mad cause some were mean to her baby...

It would be nice to think this puts this to bed but I suspect there is too much money on the table for the hysterics to stop.

Bob said...

I had always considered Ann a class act in the past but her post proves otherwise. SSM supporters have always come across as drama queens when they didn't get there way and classless in victory. I'll chalk this up to mommy being mad cause some were mean to her baby...

It would be nice to think this puts this to bed but I suspect there is too much money on the table for the hysterics to stop.

Bleach Drinkers Curing Coronavirus Together said...

So dolphins were mentioned in the ruling?

jr565 said...

See, I can answer your hypotheticals, why can't you answer mine?

Matt said...

jr565

I agree, let people marry the donkeys! And, hell, since the donkey job market has been dwindling as of late it would be one more way to collect unemployment and welfare. You're onto something.

Methadras said...

Inga said...

Palladian epitomizes just how selfish libertarians are, oh well. I'm glad most gay folks are liberals.


Inga, all you do is demonstrate how utterly morally vacuous and intellectually vacant you really are. You were born a crooked liar and do nothing but brown-nose coattail your way through this blog attaching yourself to anyone that you think will carry you on their backs to keep getting to say the inanely stupid things that you do. No one believes a word you say. No one takes you seriously anymore. No one thinks you contribute an iota of anything to any discussion you enter into. You are like that person at a party that insinuates themselves into a conversation already at hand just so you can bring attention to yourself to prove to others and yourself that they can see you and exist only to be the last one to leave the party because you are afraid you would have missed something from the time it began until the time it ended. That is you. An apparition that just floats from one nonsensical thought to the next hoping, wishing, and praying that someone or something will see her for what she is, remotely relevant.

Bleach Drinkers Curing Coronavirus Together said...

Nothing like a lil gaysex and luv to bring out jr's zoophilia!

jr565 said...

No but animals were mentioned by you in a discussion on marriage. See, you can have a coversations that is only tangentially related to the question at hand. Even about marriage restrictions in the context of gay marriage is not exactly tangential, even if the court doesn't discuss each and every one of those other restrictions in their case.

jr565 said...

No but animals were mentioned by you in a discussion on marriage. See, you can have a coversations that is only tangentially related to the question at hand. Even about marriage restrictions in the context of gay marriage is not exactly tangential, even if the court doesn't discuss each and every one of those other restrictions in their case.

Bleach Drinkers Curing Coronavirus Together said...

When mentioning "analogies" jr starts to pant and chase his tail.

Methadras said...

jr565 said...

See, I can answer your hypotheticals, why can't you answer mine?


He can't and he won't. His trolling will continue. I think I've made it official in my mind now that I will not be responding to him ever again. He has zero desire to engage in any meaningful discussion and letting his thread crapping continue. I was willing, again to give him the benefit of the doubt, but he killed it because he isn't a serious individual. At this point, he's just a meaningless troll trolling about his meaningless words that have no meaning to anyone but him.

Methadras said...

Inga said...

Palladian epitomizes just how selfish libertarians are, oh well. I'm glad most gay folks are liberals.


Inga, all you do is demonstrate how utterly morally vacuous and intellectually vacant you really are. You were born a crooked liar and do nothing but brown-nose coattail your way through this blog attaching yourself to anyone that you think will carry you on their backs to keep getting to say the inanely stupid things that you do. No one believes a word you say. No one takes you seriously anymore. No one thinks you contribute an iota of anything to any discussion you enter into. You are like that person at a party that insinuates themselves into a conversation already at hand just so you can bring attention to yourself to prove to others and yourself that they can see you and exist only to be the last one to leave the party because you are afraid you would have missed something from the time it began until the time it ended. That is you. An apparition that just floats from one nonsensical thought to the next hoping, wishing, and praying that someone or something will see her for what she is, remotely relevant.

Methadras said...

Let's see if this one disappears again. Come on Meade or Ann, surely you have better things to do.

Matt said...

There are over 400 comments and it has come down to debating people marrying donkeys. Hahaha.

Debate is over for today....

jr565 said...

Matt wrote:
agree, let people marry the donkeys! And, hell, since the donkey job market has been dwindling as of late it would be one more way to collect unemployment and welfare. You're onto something.

so if there were a restriction on marrying animals you would have a problem with it? Would you be a bigot if you supported those restrictions?

And what if you are having sex with animals. People,have gone to,jail for having sex with animals. Perhaps we are discriminating against them and their,alternate lifestyle. The animal fuckers are now discriminated against.

Back to the incest question. There are currently restriction on brothers marrying sisters. Is tht a restriction that should be overturned or does society have a right to make,that distinction. Because, again they do love each other, and are taxpayers and are denied rights simply because of an alternative lifestyle. Should they be able to adopt?

Bleach Drinkers Curing Coronavirus Together said...

Every hypothetical is equally relevant!

Hence, Methadras and jr refuse to answer my question! Why not marriage with a parcheesi set? Why can't you marry a backgammon board? Or a chess piece? Have you seen some of those horsey looking items?

Or you could be like a king and marry the queen. Just make sure the rooks are looking out for you.

Jr and Meth are pawns in the game of life.

Bleach Drinkers Curing Coronavirus Together said...

There are over 400 comments and it has come down to debating people marrying donkeys. Hahaha.

Debate is over for today....


Lol! Yup.

Behold the intellectual acumen of the right-wing in all its splendor!

Anonymous said...

Meth, everyone has your number, not even conservatives want to associate themselves with you anymore than they do your soul brother PMJ.

jr565 said...

All other people can see how one topic might relate to other topics except Ritmo, including the polygamist who made the exact argument that this ruling is tied into her own desire to make polygamy legal (which I linked to earlier). Why can she see that, but Ritmo can't. Why can she answer questions about polygamy but Ritmo can't?

Bleach Drinkers Curing Coronavirus Together said...

There are over 400 comments and it has come down to debating people marrying donkeys. Hahaha.

Debate is over for today....


But there are important questions afoot! Burning intricacies of complex social and moral reasoning and tradition that MUST be addressed before we allow this change to take place!

Braaaayyyyy!

Cody Jarrett said...

Glad to see nothing changes. Little Annie Fannie is trolling her commentariat, then insulting and degrading anyone who doesn't agree with her, all in the name of blog hits, screw the intellectual honesty.

Meade hates it, but doesn't dare say anything much or she'll take the keys to the TT away and he'll be sad.

Inga shows up and thinks she's saying smart stuff when really she's babbling like a chimp with half it's brain spooned out and served smeared on crackers.

Then Ritfuck and Balls takes over to make sure the last hundred or so posts are completely pointless.

Although there was some good stuff from Palladian, as usual. I wish my gay father and his faggot friends were as clear eyed as he is.

And of course Bags. Bags is funny.

Edtucher manages to fail miserably at straddling the line between keeping his lips firmly attached to Annie-Fannie's asshole and disagreeing with her. He tries to do this by insulting everyone who agrees with Anniekins and making up cute names for them, but still fails.

Ahh, how things change....or...calcify.


Enjoy the decline, bitches!

Tits.

And oh yeah...clouds. Tits and clouds. Clouds that look like tits. I saw a tree that looked like it had tits. It was hot.

Hi Meth, btw. It took you this long to figure out Ritfuck and Balls is pathetic?

Didn't think you were one of the slow kids.


Tits!

Methadras said...

Matt said...

There are over 400 comments and it has come down to debating people marrying donkeys. Hahaha.

Debate is over for today....


For the record, I don't use that line of logic, aka sanctioned matrimonial bestiality as a basis for debate. I mean after all I don't think having relations from the party of the donkey means much to anyone anyway unless you like being associated with political asses.

Bleach Drinkers Curing Coronavirus Together said...

All other people can see how one topic might relate to other topics except Ritmo, including the polygamist who made the exact argument that this ruling is tied into her own desire to make polygamy legal (which I linked to earlier). Why can she see that, but Ritmo can't.

Was it addressed in the suit? Was it addressed in the legislation? Was it addressed by the ruling?

Just be ok with it having no place in this question. Yes, I know it makes your evening plans a little more complicated, but you'll survive.

Methadras said...

Inga said...

Meth, everyone has your number, not even conservatives want to associate themselves with you anymore than they do your soul brother PMJ.


Always with the nothing response. You are nothing but a spook of the left. Floating from host to host like a lamprey attaching your giant bug-eyed suck mouth to anyone you think will heft your load of idiocy.

Bleach Drinkers Curing Coronavirus Together said...

Glad to see nothing changes.

Especially the part where "CEO-MMP" doesn't even know what the topic's about!

Anonymous said...

CEO shows up and thinks he is the arbiter of TRUTH, bwhahahahaah, oh Gawd, conservatives have really shown they are the STUPID party again today, what fun for a liberal.

Ann Althouse gave you folks a chance, you cons blew it once again.

SHE WON the bet.

President-Mom-Jeans said...

Keep rambling you old sow, and have another drink.

I'll bet that liver doesn't make it another 15 years, with the last five rotting in a nursing home.

Tick tock.

Anonymous said...

Losers.

chickelit said...

Ann Althouse gave you folks a chance, you cons blew it once again.

I don't think Althouse has ever changed my mind on anything, but several of her better commenters have. They know who they are.

Bleach Drinkers Curing Coronavirus Together said...

Far be it from me to remind commenters on a blog run by a law professor that courts decline to weigh in on certain things all the time.

Not only in their rulings, but even in deciding whether to hear a certain case.

But hear we must, Methie's and jr's demands about how the dolphin-marriers, donkey-buggerers and polygamists will somehow have a stake in all this.

Which they don't and they won't. Or if they do, not in a way that's vaguely affected by the ruling.

jr565 said...

Incestual marriages and polygamous ones are far more realistic than marrying inanimate objects or pets.

But here's an example of a man who married an inanimate object in Japan for your enjoyment.

http://boingboing.net/2009/11/24/footage-from-the-fir.html

My point was not about marrying inanimate objects. It sounds ridiculous to me. I would think taht you wouldn't need rules against it since the idea that it would happen would be so,ludicrous. yet, suppose hypothetically someone did (like in my example above). Could society restrict their right to marry who they love by saying "you can't have a legal marriage unless you have two people involved".?

Polygamists are real people as are incestual couples. Some have kids. If there are marriage benefits denied to gay couples they are similarly denied to these couples since they too can't marry. How do you, Ritmo, feel about that?

Bleach Drinkers Curing Coronavirus Together said...

I note that, rumble and shake as our satanic and liberal earth did today, donkey/dolphin marriage is still not sanctioned.

I'm sure this upsets many conservatives, though.

Bleach Drinkers Curing Coronavirus Together said...

Incestual marriages and polygamous ones are far more realistic than marrying inanimate objects or pets.

Their acceptance also goes against the grain of historical progress. These are things that were more common, and now much less and less so as social and scientific progress was made and continues to be made. Gay marriage is different and went in a completely opposite direction for those exact same underlying reasons.

But that also eludes you entirely.

Unknown said...

Matt said...
wyo sis

law is not quite as reliable as it once was and people are not quite what we assign them to be in our imaginations.


What exactly does that mean? Do you have a concrete example to illustrate what you mean?


I mean that there are so many laws and regulations that a person can no longer assume that if they aren't doing anything wrong they can't be prosecuted. There is no guarantee that people who are breaking the law will be prosecuted. There is no law the Supreme Court can't find a penumbra to justify. There is soon going to be no way the government can be restrained from making you pay for things you see as absolute moral evil ie abortion.

I mean that Inga and other liberals can not fathom that a "fag" like Palladian can hold a non liberal political position. That if someone once said nigger they can lose their career. That if you have some political positions that differ from the "orthodoxy" of your political box you are worthless. That every Christian is responsible for every other Christians social sins. Or plug in conservative or liberal or any other thing you choose.

There's more ... along the lines of that if I find things to love about people means I have to endorse or ratify or codify things I think are wrong. I get it. You can only be a good acceptable conservative Christian person if you fall in line with every passing social experiment and only the "winners" are right. A sort of tame Christian conservative brought out to prove that the simpletons really CAN learn.
But, I know it won't change anyone's mind. I just think at some point you have to just say something. Say it because you are planting your flag on this mountain at this time and you won't be moved or silenced.

jr565 said...

Ritmo wrote:
polygamists will somehow have a stake in all this.

Which they don't and they won't. Or if they do, not in a way that's vaguely affected by the ruling.

except I already posted a link to a polygamist who said this ruling will, hopefully make it easier to,legalize polygamy.
Do polygamists have a stake in marriage though? Or incestual couples who want to marry. Do they suffer any penalties if they can't marry? And they can't marry now.
Does your concept of marriage equality include them?
If yes, state it freely. If not, then you do realize your position involves denying people rights, correct?

Bleach Drinkers Curing Coronavirus Together said...

...except I already posted a link to a polygamist who said this ruling will, hopefully make it easier to...

Oh really? That's nice! And maybe now I'll post a link to a senile nudist in a nursing home who says that the ruling hastens the arrival of the Raelians from their journey past Alpha Centauri!

Bleach Drinkers Curing Coronavirus Together said...

Shorter jr:

But some guy sez dat...

jr565 said...

So you're comparing polygamists to Raelians now?

jr565 said...

If your link from the Raelian has some bearing on gay marriage, or DOMA then post it.
You'll notice that the reporter asking the question sought out her opinion because she saw the linkage between the two discussions.
Its a shame that you can't.

Bleach Drinkers Curing Coronavirus Together said...

I'm comparing people without authority to people without authority.

I'd say I was comparing people without a handle on reality to... Well, but I realize how personally offended you get when we point out someone's removal from reality.

jr565 said...

Prior,to DOMA's decision being handed down would you have been able to answer said questions? In any of the other myriad gay marriage posts on Althouse? That also dealt with tangential issues?

Or how about Althouse's post where she herself discussed the slippery slope argument in relation to polygamy and gay marriage. How did she come by such a linkage?

Bleach Drinkers Curing Coronavirus Together said...

Yawn.

jr565 said...

Ritmo wrote:
I'm comparing people without authority to people without authority.

and I'm comparing people restricted from marrying with people restricted from marrying. and whether the restriction in both cases is oppressive. And both are denied rights.

So when you talk abut marriage equality, or changing and redefining marriage and further call people,who don't want to lift the restriction bigots, then it becomes a question about marriage itself. Does your marriage equality apply to all restrictions? Are you a bigot if you don't agree with all restrictions? If you say marriage should be about love and nothing else, should that apply to all restricted marriages?
If the question is denial of rights and we recognize that anyone denied marriage is denied rights, is it wrong for us to restrict marriages because of that? Yes, for gay marriages, but no for the other restricted marriages? Why not?

People like Revenant are up front about saying govt should h
Get out of the marriage business altogether. I disagree, but at least that's his position. You can't even answer a simple basic question that everyone else sees is tied into the marriage debate, even if not touched on in the DOMA decision. Fundamentally dishonest on your part.

Bleach Drinkers Curing Coronavirus Together said...

Yawn.

jr565 said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
jr565 said...

Its ok Ritmo. I know you have no answer. You're a one note caricature. All you're about is calling repubs bigots. When pressed to defend your position you fold like a cheap tent and then refuse to engage in topics.

And by the way, if this is what it takes to get you to write as little as possible then victory is mine.

I Have Misplaced My Pants said...

But, I know it won't change anyone's mind. I just think at some point you have to just say something. Say it because you are planting your flag on this mountain at this time and you won't be moved or silenced.

I think I love you, sis.

Bleach Drinkers Curing Coronavirus Together said...

Yawn.

Unknown said...

That means a lot coming from you IHMMP. There are a few commenters here who's opinion I value and you are one of them.

Lydia said...

R & B: Does this writer at Slate have enough of a "handle on reality" to satisfy you?

The definition of marriage is plastic. Just like heterosexual marriage is no better or worse than homosexual marriage, marriage between two consenting adults is not inherently more or less “correct” than marriage among three (or four, or six) consenting adults. Though polygamists are a minority—a tiny minority, in fact—freedom has no value unless it extends to even the smallest and most marginalized groups among us. So let’s fight for marriage equality until it extends to every same-sex couple in the United States—and then let’s keep fighting. We’re not done yet.

Seems pretty well reasoned to me.

Titus said...

This is settled wings. Even the republican house leadership, who are without any balls, don't want to comment.

Move on. You will be ok. Life will continue.

But let's face it fag marriage is so passe now.

It's so whatever to anyone under 40. That is a hard pill to "swallow". But try and take it all in one gulp, it's easier that way.

You will always have Huckabee and frothy mixture and fertile Palin and Michelle and Marcia Bachmann and Family Focus for Families for the betterment of America.

None of them will get you the White House though

traditionalguy said...

Gay men and gay women and men who were formerly women and women who were formerly men, we suddenly evolved bigots salute you!

So what should we evolve into next as atonement for living as dull normal people?

Seriously, congratulations.





jr565 said...

The definition of marriage is plastic. Just like heterosexual marriage is no better or worse than homosexual marriage, marriage between two consenting adults is not inherently more or less “correct” than marriage among three (or four, or six) consenting adults. Though polygamists are a minority—a tiny minority, in fact—freedom has no value unless it extends to even the smallest and most marginalized groups among us. So let’s fight for marriage equality until it extends to every same-sex couple in the United States—and then let’s keep fighting. We’re not done yet.

Does that include incestual couples or trios, and underage couples or trios? Those would be part of the same sex couples in the US that have yet be made free from the shackles of bondage.


jr565 said...

freedom has no value unless it extends to even the smallest and most marginalized groups among us.

NAMBLA Is a pretty marginalized group. Freedom should be extended to them. Necrophiliacs and animal lovers are a pretty small and marginalized group. And freedom has no value until they too are free to do what they want to do.

Free to be you and me.

traditionalguy said...

Eureka, jr565 has got it.

Three way marriages will make the divorce lawyer business go up 50%.
And all we have to do is drop being bigots.

hombre said...

Well, Igna and I are proud of the Dems for repealing DOMA when they had the Congress and the WH in 2008-10.

What say? They didn't? Well wtf are they crowing about now?

jr565 said...

Why do Slate readers get the point, and can even comment on it. Yet Ritmo can't and won't.

Yawn.

hombre said...

"... Though polygamists are a minority—a tiny minority, in fact...."

Only so far. Give it time.

jr565 said...

Al Franken said recently:
“Our country is starting to understand that it’s not about what a family looks like: it’s about their love and commitment to one another.”


So of course I'm wondering. Does he mean this when applied to polygamists? How about incestual families? It's not what a family looks like: it's about their love and commitment to one another.

Will Al Franken now defend incest? Why not? It's about the love and commitment not what the family looks like Al. And there are plenty of families currently shamed into thinking their love should be criminal. By bigots!
Marriage is plastic as the above commenter mentioned.

This type of comment is why I was trying to get an answer from Ritmo and why he refused. This is how the gay marriage debate was argued by the left. And if you didn't agree then you're a bigot.
But if it doesn't hold unversally then you probably shouldn't make it your sole argument.

jr565 said...

Is Inga going to call people bigots if they don't stand for legalizing incest?
Because as Al said "it's not about what the family looks like, it's about their love and commitment to each other."
Unless you want to argue that incestual families don't love and aren't commited to each other, then it's not about how they look but about their commitment.

So, if Inga doesn't defend incest at this point I'm going to start calling her a bigot and a hypocrite.
Unless she wants to say that Franken's statement is in fact wrong, or at least not universal.

Unknown said...

My daughter wrote this and I think she did a good job of articulating a reasoned and compassionate point of view. I edited it a little to take out some identifying information.

"I believe that the term "marriage" was appropriated by the government, many years ago, to establish a type of contract law that offered tax and other benefits to individuals. It was a term already in use and was easily used to define this contract in law. As time went on and the morality of the world changed this term has lost its usefulness and accuracy by excluding individuals who, in terms of what the the contract law is doing, are now being denied their governmental rights. It is unconstitutional to deny these benefits to same sex couples who have created (as far as the contract law is concerned) the same union as heterosexual couples.
This is what the fight for same-sex marriage should be. An equalizing of these rights. Where the line gets blurred is when people, who for moral/religions/personal reasons do not believe that same-sex relationships are right. I do not think that homosexuality is morally correct. This does not mean I condemn those who live this way. It does not mean that I have any desire to deny them their rights. This does not mean that I am not kind to everyone. This does not mean I cannot associate/befriend people who choose to live differently than me. I think gays should have the right to "marry" in as much as I feel it is unconstitutional to deny any individuals rights to enter into a government sanctioned contract that yields tax and other benefits.
So, ultimately I think the government should get out of the marriage business. It is an antiquated definition and needs to be changed. Leave "marriage" to religion who, under the constitution, have the rights to define it as they wish. I think conservatives are contradicting themselves by objecting to this ruling because conservatives are all about getting government out of their personal lives and for fairness under the law.
As I said, I am not the best at expressing myself but... there it is."

jr565 said...

I think gays should have the right to "marry" in as much as I feel it is unconstitutional to deny any individuals rights to enter into a government sanctioned contract that yields tax and other benefits.

but how far do you want to extend this? Should a mother and daughter be able to marry thus normalizing incest? That would mean by the way that govt is neutral on incest. Incest would be as normative as traditional marriage. Is it unconstitutional to deny a kid the right to marry an adult? Considering that kids are individuals. Is it unconstitutional to say that a man can't be in more than one marriage at once? Either marriage means anything or you have to lay down some definitions.
Even right now with gay marriage its still just two people that can marriage. But they still can't marry if they're brothers. They still can't marry if there are more than two etc. are the restrictions still placed on them also unconstitutional?

Marriage was the model that society promoted to strengthen the family, and its based on biology. Men and women have the kids and society wants them to raise their kids therfore they promote that structure thrat best does that. Now, supposedly its not about kids but families. But it still usually involves people being in sexual relationships. So, society should suddenly sanction incest because of some absolutist position that never existed when it came to marriage? Since when has marriage not been regulated?
Also, how do you suggest govt get out of marriage considering govts has to be there when it comes to issues like divorce and custody.

Also if marriage is unconstitutional if it doesn't allow everyone to marry everyone then why did the founding fathers have marriage be between a man and a woman? Perhaps the constitution or the founders interpretation isn't as libertarian as you think.

Mark said...

Makes sense to me, wyosis.

Anonymous said...

Bunch of creepy ass crackers up in this thread.

Anonymous said...

Good grief, Althouse. I actually agree with you on the merits (i.e. I don't oppose gay marriage--though I know plenty of people who do, and I don't think their religious beliefs make them bigots because that would, you know, make me a religious bigot), but you could not come off as more condescending or unlikeable in your tone. Get over yourself.

Seriously, I'm always amused at the irony of people engaging in religious bigotry to denounce other kinds of perceived bigotry. Grow some self-awareness, losers.

Oh, and while I'm here, I must comment on one Inga, who I had never before had the misfortune of seeing in a comments section (I don't read this blog all too frequently, and I stumbled across this post). She's the person who *thinks* she's funny, but is in fact decidedly unfunny. Nothing is worse than an unfunny person constantly cracking lame jokes. It's OK. Not everyone can be funny. But if you're not (and you absolutely are not), just keep it simple and to the point. Leave the jokes to people who are funny.

Gahrie said...

Democrats are right to recognize that rights we enjoy as Americans should not be withheld from a segment of our society based on their sexual preference.



Pedophiles and rapists everywhere agree with you.

amba said...

Ann doesn't mean there was an actual apike in actual bigotry fer Chrissake. This is a very layered post. But I admire her for coming out swinging at the end -- swinging, mainly, at a minority that suddenly dislikes democracy.

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