July 5, 2013

Dr. Bao... wow.

At the George Zimmerman trial:
[The Medical Examiner Dr.] Bao is reading his answers off personal notes. "I typed out potential answers to your potential questions." West asks to see the notes, but Bao replied "I'd rather you not." Judge Nelson tells him both sides' attorneys are entitled to view his notes.
And:
The defense attorneys grin while reviewing Bao's notes. From the witness stand, the medical examiner asks "Is there something funny there?"
Bao looked very nervous to me. He protested that he'd written these notes by himself, on his own time, but after he referred to them while testifying, the defense lawyers now get to look at everything, perhaps including notes about the doctor's discussions with the prosecutor.

Bao was the state's last witness, this Friday afternoon, and now things seem quite chaotic.

203 comments:

1 – 200 of 203   Newer›   Newest»
Jay said...

Is there something funny there

Why yes, yes there is...

YoungHegelian said...

West asks to see the notes, but Bao replied "I'd rather you not." Judge Nelson tells him both sides' attorneys are entitled to view his notes.

This is the county's M.E.?! And he doesn't freaking know that everything he brings into court has to get examined by both prosecution & defense?

Is this trial taking place in the USA or in Totalfuckupastan?

Jay said...

Dr. Bao seemed oddly defensive to the state's questions from the get go.

I have no idea what is going on with this guy, but he is the epitome of "loose cannon"

Icepick said...

Dr. Shiping Bao is an associate medical examiner. Presumably he isn't going to get promoted anytime soon. Alternately, he's about to be appoint Surgeon General by the Administration.

Brennan said...

This is Florida. Live there are your own peril.

Jay said...

And of course @DRBAOSNOTES already a profile on Twitter...

Jay said...

OMG, epic:

Dr. Bao's Notes ‏@DRBAOSNOTES 1h
Mr. West, #BAODOWN

Icepick said...

Brennan, Florida was fine until everyone decided to move here. When it was just as natives, the alligators, crocs, palmetto bugs and mosquitoes we did just fine.

But now we've got New Yorkers and Cubans and Virginians and Haitians and Nile Monitor lizards and boa constrictors and all kinds of other alien riff-raff, and it's all gone to Hell.

Jay said...

WFTV legal analyst Bill Sheaffer says the defense is very likely to make the routine motion for judgement of acquittal once the state rests

Icepick said...

Oops, Brennan's comment got eaten by Google.

n.n said...

One witness could not write, and enlisted a transcriber to compensate for her deficiency. Perhaps this witness cannot think, and enlisted an expert to compensate for his deficiency.

Icepick said...

WFTV legal analyst Bill Sheaffer says the defense is very likely to make the routine motion for judgement of acquittal once the state rests

Does Sheaffer think the defense motion will lead to a dismissal of the case by the judge? The motion if completely routine otherwise.

SomeoneHasToSayIt said...

More incompetence by this judge.

Ruled copies can be made, then after testimony , destroyed. Destroyed??? What about need of notes in possible appeal?

She'll (she!) have to reverse herself on that one, I bet.

rhhardin said...

It's a trial about whether blacks are a politically important interest group any longer.

The prosecution has to screw up every last detail in order to make it a clear statement in the affirmative.

Jay said...

WTF, did Judge Nelson just put the state prosecutor under oath in the sidebar?

Jay said...

Icepick,

Yeah, very rare to see the judge toss it, doubt it will happen here.

Truckee Man said...

Is it true that the court is entitled to examine notes the witness brings to the witness stand?

Jay said...

BDLR raises right hand and swearsies he didn't know about Bao notes (it seems)

?????????????

Icepick said...

I would like to make one statement in defense of the State of Florida and the prosecution of this case. It has taken less than nine days of trial (post jury selection) for the state to completely fuck up their own case. The OJ trial fan from opening statements on January 24, 1995 to a verdict on October 3, 1995. Florida is a MUCH more efficient fuck-up than California!

Also, after other states kept screwing up with Ted Bundy, Florida caught the bastard and killed him. California still periodically considers letting Charles Manson out of jail. Score another one for Florida.

Truckee Man said...

Is it true that the court is entitled to examine notes the witness brings to the witness stand?

Jay said...

Dr. Bao says he changed his opinion 3 weeks ago about how long Martin lived after shooting from 1-3 minutes to 1-10 minutes.

He has "notes in his office" about this and never contacted the state's attorney's about this.

LOL

chrisnavin.com said...

Hegelian, it's taking place in Florida.

Tank said...

Truckee Man said...
Is it true that the court is entitled to examine notes the witness brings to the witness stand?


Yes.

edutcher said...

You'd think the Choom Gang was running things.

Jay said...

OMG, epic:

Dr. Bao's Notes ‏@DRBAOSNOTES 1h
Mr. West, #BAODOWN


Still don't beat Bao, wow!

Mitchell the Bat said...

They should name a stir-fry dish after him.

Revenant said...

Yeah, very rare to see the judge toss it, doubt it will happen here.

Legally it ought to be tossed. There's no way an unbiased jury fails to find reason to doubt Zimmerman's guilt.

But who are we kidding? No judge is going to issue that ruling. Her life as she knows it would be over. She'd be lucky to get a job parking cars.

exhelodrvr1 said...

What does Chris Matthews think?

Matthew Sablan said...

... Wow. This just went from incompetence to potentially deliberately fooling around with evidence.

Icepick said...

What does Chris Matthews think?

That his wife and sons are very liberal.

Bob_R said...

I haven't been following very closely. From what I gather, the usual motion to dismiss might be more than a formal gesture in a less politically charged trial. Anyone think there is any chance that the judge will just throw the case out?

Ignorance is Bliss said...

Truckee Man said...

Is it true that the court is entitled to examine notes the witness brings to the witness stand?

I can't answer in regards to a trial, but I was once deposed for a lawsuit. My lawyer told me that I could use notes, or look at other documents, but that if I did I would have to provide a copy to the opposing attorney.

They say a lawyer should never ask a question in court unless they know what answer they will get. Having these notes lets the defense know what questions to ask, and what to avoid.

It could even give them questions to ask that they had not thought of, but that the ME was worried about how to answer them.

Lem said...

The judge is a woman and the jury is all females.

The stereotype is that women don’t listen to each other.

So, If Zimmerman doesn’t testify and the women don’t listen to the judge's instruction, not to hold that against him, the trial is a toss up chicken salad.

Methadras said...

YoungHegelian said...

West asks to see the notes, but Bao replied "I'd rather you not." Judge Nelson tells him both sides' attorneys are entitled to view his notes.

This is the county's M.E.?! And he doesn't freaking know that everything he brings into court has to get examined by both prosecution & defense?

Is this trial taking place in the USA or in Totalfuckupastan?


This is what shoddy prosecution nonsense looks like and unfortunately, if you ever find yourself in the cross-hairs of people like this, you will forever be ensnared in this nonsense.

Auntie Ann said...

Since the autopsy report, he changed his opinion on how long Martin could have lived (from 1-3 minutes to 1-10.)

Since the autopsy report, he changed his opinion on the effects of Martin's THC (marijuana) levels (from none to possibly some. But, judge rules no questions about THC levels are allowed.)

Then he says in court "I can change my opinion every hour." Unfortunately, the jury wasn't in the room when he said it.

Inga said...

"The stereotype is that women don’t listen to each other."

7/5/13, 1:00 PM

Good lord.

Gahrie said...

This guy went to the Pres. Obama school of responsibility:

"I don't know"

"I don't remember"

"It's not my job"

Matthew Sablan said...

I think they should ask Bao every hour he's on the stand: "Have your opinions changed yet?"

Gahrie said...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JFvujknrBuE

Richard Dolan said...

The trial has been exceedingly strange from the get-go. The prosecutor has presented witness after witness who gave testimony you would expect to hear on the defense case. The latest bit of craziness with the ME is in keeping with the strangeness of the trial.

So how to explain it? The majority view has viewed the decision to bring this case as a morality play: Florida had to proceed with a trial that they knew would (certainly should) end in an acquittal in order to explain why they didn't really want to bring this case -- they had to do it so you would know why they should have not done it. The folks who were the intended audience for that exercise in acting-out were those likely to be swayed by race-baiters. (Ann had a post a week or so ago with that as its theme.)

But that only explains why the case was brought, not why it has played out in the courtroom as a Keystone-Kops affair. It's just unbelievably sloppy for a prosecutor to put on a major witness like the ME and not have a clue that the witness had written out answers to expected questions and brought those notes to the courtroom. If that was all intentional, it reflects an astonishingly condescending view of the play's intended audience.

Pathetic and embarrassing.

Tibore said...

"Bao wow"... ISWYDT. :)

Kevin said...

I've been an expert witness several times.

I go up on the stand with an unmarked copy of my testimony, a blank legal pad, and a pen.

How on earth could Bao not know that you don't bring notes with you on the stand if you don't want the other side to read them?

Big Mike said...

Is this trial taking place in the USA or in Totalfuckupastan?

It's taking place in the country of the Progressives' wet dreams.

jr565 said...

Bao wow wow yippee yo yipee yay

Alex said...

In other news, Democrats seem to think that the 2016 elections are going to "shock the GOP to their core".

Kevin said...

Just to clarify, when I've been a witness, I've filed written testimony before being cross-examined.

Methadras said...

I don't understand how Dr. Bao's copies of his notes can be destroyed after his testimony. These are essential evidence, no? I now see this guy being on the stand for the next week.

Rabel said...

Copies given to lawyers to be destroyed. Not originals.

ironrailsironweights said...

I've been a diligent gym-goer for more than a decade. Given that the gym I attended for most of that time attracted a very "diverse" crowd, I've been able to make some observations on the interplay between ethnicity and strength.

While there are some very strong blacks, for the most part they're nothing special. In particular, the tall, lanky, low-bodyfat Trayvon Martin types tend to be underwhelming. As I noted elsewhere, their low bodyfat percentages makes their musculature stand out, but does NOT mean that they're especially muscular or strong. You'll often see that sort struggling to bench 135.

Mexicans seem to be the group whose members often are a lot stronger than they look. There's nothing at all unusual about seeing a short, chubby Mexican benching 275 or even 315 for reps.

Peter

Big Mike said...

@Jay, let me get this straight. A 9mm round fired at point blank range and therefore retaining nearly all of a muzzle velocity of 1100 to 1200 feet per second (depending on the ammunition) impacted Trayvon Martin in the center of his chest and Dr. Bao thinks he might have been alive for up to ten minutes? I suspect young Trayvon was dead before he hit the ground.

AReasonableMan said...

For all the people who have slandered Trayvon Martin's character his brother Jahvaris Fulton is a valuable corrective. The two brothers were close and look similar. Jahvaris is senior in a good four-year college. This is the future that Zimmerman cut short.

Methadras said...

Rabel said...

Copies given to lawyers to be destroyed. Not originals.


I understand that, but they are copies of the original, so how can you destroy them after testimony. Wouldn't they be needed for other inquiries or to be used by the defense? This makes no sense to me. This is evidence and the judge is seeking to limit that evidence after testimony. So if Dr. Bao was called back to the stand, would his notes have to be recopied?

Kev said...

(the other kev)

God, and I thought the O.J. murder prosecutors were witless idiots. Professor, is it possible to lose your law license for being a total fuck-up?

Ignorance is Bliss said...

How on earth could Bao not know that you don't bring notes with you on the stand if you don't want the other side to read them?

Of course, Bao should not even be thinking in terms of the other side. He should be there to explain his medical observations and conclusions. He should not be on either side.

Methadras said...

AReasonableMan said...

For all the people who have slandered Trayvon Martin's character his brother Jahvaris Fulton is a valuable corrective. The two brothers were close and look similar. Jahvaris is senior in a good four-year college. This is the future that Zimmerman cut short.


Martin isn't his brother. Their closeness isn't what is in question here and your appeal to emotion is as transparent as you are. If you decide that you are going to fight one man for something and that other man fights back and kills you to defend himself against what he thinks is going to be his life, then getting killed in the process is the consequence of that action. Treyvon Martin died for his actions in his attempt to beat up or kill George Zimmerman. Everything that led up to that consequence is meaningless. Treyvon could have run away, he could have slipped into the night and never be seen again, alive and well, but nope. He decided to confront someone that he didn't know was armed and according to the police interrogation, Zimmerman feared for his life when Martin threatened it and reached for his gun.

I suppose you can make more of your appeals, but people will see them for the fakery they are.

AReasonableMan said...

ironrailsironweights said...
As I noted elsewhere, their low bodyfat percentages makes their musculature stand out, but does NOT mean that they're especially muscular or strong. You'll often see that sort struggling to bench 135.

Mexicans seem to be the group whose members often are a lot stronger than they look. There's nothing at all unusual about seeing a short, chubby Mexican benching 275 or even 315 for reps.


I have attended a similar gym and I would agree in the more general sense that stocky men are, in general, much stronger that skinny teens. Usually there is no comparison. Who knows with Zimmerman, but the argument of the intimidatingly overwhelming black youth, personified in Trayvon Martin, is just so much hocus pocus.

James said...

@Jay, let me get this straight. A 9mm round fired at point blank range and therefore retaining nearly all of a muzzle velocity of 1100 to 1200 feet per second (depending on the ammunition) impacted Trayvon Martin in the center of his chest and Dr. Bao thinks he might have been alive for up to ten minutes? I suspect young Trayvon was dead before he hit the ground.

In Zimmerman's interviews with the police investigators Serino and Singleton he said that Trayvon talked to him after he shot him. He reported that Trayvon said "You got me" after he shot him; and later he also said that he was babbling for a while.

All this was discussed during the investigators' testimony earlier in the week.

Big Mike said...

@Unreasonableman, it has never been the case that one brother turned out well and the other turned out bad? Maybe not since Cain and Abel? When will it penetrate your rock-thick skull that Martin died because he assaulted Zimmerman?

Chip Ahoy said...

At the moment of peak tension the judges declares he decided on his own to delay judgement for one year.

Rusty said...

AReasonableMan said...
For all the people who have slandered Trayvon Martin's character his brother Jahvaris Fulton is a valuable corrective. The two brothers were close and look similar. Jahvaris is senior in a good four-year college. This is the future that Zimmerman cut short.

Unfuckin'believable.

Scott M said...

I have attended a similar gym and I would agree in the more general sense that stocky men are, in general, much stronger that skinny teens.

Depends on what you're calling stocky. Thick doesn't mean strong and, frankly, it's nearly all a question of leverage. A wiry, skinny kid in great shape with leverage can outmatch a bigger, heavy guy almost every time. Some martial arts are based on this concept.

Not to mention fast twitch muscles vs slow twitch muscles.

Big Mike said...

@James, thank you for refreshing my memory. I recollect the testimony now. Sorry.

James said...

Trayvon Martin was such a good kid that his mother couldn't handle him and sent him to live with his father. Wasn't it also reported earlier in the week that he was mostly raised by Alicia Stanley and not his mother?

Scott M said...

Jahvaris is senior in a good four-year college. This is the future that Zimmerman cut short.

On the basis of this claim, I advise you to change your screen name immediately.

There are TWINS that are raised by the same parents that you could not make the above claim about.

Revenant said...

This is the future that Zimmerman cut short.

The ex-con parking lot attendant field lost a promising young star when that bullet hit Martin's chest.

X said...

hey ARM, did you know Al Capone had a brother?

Michael said...

ARM. Yes, TM was clearly headed to college. Hilarious.

Mumpsimus.

AReasonableMan said...

Big Mike said...
Maybe not since Cain and Abel?


I am assuming that you are aware that the story of Cain and Abel is a fable designed to illustrate a moral point.

While it is true that brothers are not going to have identical lives it is remarkable how often they have very similar lives. They are raised the same way and have the same expectations of life.

At worst, Jahvaris illustrates that Trayvon had a range of potential outcomes, clearly some were quite positive.

Scott M said...

At worst, Jahvaris illustrates that Trayvon had a range of potential outcomes, clearly some were quite positive.

In other words, Jahvaris illustrates the possibilities that just about everyone else in the country illustrates.

The term "beclowning" comes up and gains relevance with each and every post you make on this thread.

AReasonableMan said...

Michael said...
Yes, TM was clearly headed to college.


You don't know this. One of my sons and a nephew both had bad high school records. Both kids are now well on track to respectable middle class lives.

Personally I found the slander of Trayvon objectionable and Jahvaris illustrates that he had options. The one-deminsional image that many have tried to propagate has other dimensions.

Skeptical Voter said...

Doesn't the Ringling Brothers/Barnum & Bailey circus winter somewhere in Florida? Seems to me that Sanford has its very own circus these days--and it's not even winter!
I hate to say it but girl friend "Dee Dee" appears to be brighter than this medical examiner--and her IQ doesn't even hit room temperature on an average day.

Scott M said...

The one-deminsional image that many have tried to propagate has other dimensions.

That's not what you said above. There was no mention of "range of options". You produced Jahvaris and said THIS is the future that was cut short.

That's unambiguous at best.

creeley23 said...

My brother looked a lot like me and was a dead junkie at 19.

ARM, you are such a tool.

AReasonableMan said...

Skeptical Voter said...
"Dee Dee" appears to be brighter than this medical examiner--and her IQ doesn't even hit room temperature on an average day.


It gets pretty hot in Florida.

Revenant said...

Is it wrong to defend yourself against potential students of two-year colleges, or only against potential students of four-year colleges? :)

Does the immunity scale with the quality of the educational institution? For example, if a potential state school student is free to assault, are Ivy Leaguers free to rape? That would explain William Kennedy.

Titus said...

Are all medical examiners Asian?

Left Bank of the Charles said...

One must remember that crap science testimony is an everyday occurrence in our courts, what's not everyday is for the poor quality witnesses to face questioning by good defense counsel on television.

The ME Dr. Bao did at least testify that Trayvon Martin died of a gunshot wound. Who knows how he would have testified without his notes.

Now the defense has a convincing of how Trayvon Martin's got rolled up under his body - he did that himself before dying.

I think that those of us who think manslaughter would be a just verdict must be ready to concede that the only punishment George Zimmerman will receive is being put to trial.

Icepick said...

Bao wow wow yippee yo yipee yay

Nicely played, sir!

Henry said...

Whitey Bulger

Whitey Bulger's Brother

Rusty said...


Personally I found the slander of Trayvon objectionable

Meh

and Jahvaris illustrates that he had options.


EVERYONE has options. Treyvon decided to to act upon his , his way. Bad decisions. Bad outcomes.


The one-deminsional image that many have tried to propagate has other dimensions.

Now that's funny.


Michael said...

ARM. And you do not know that the sun will rise tomorrow. Further it doesnt matter if you are studying at Cambridge if you attack someone, break their nose and pound their head on the curb.

Mumpsimus.

bagoh20 said...

OK, I see it now. AReasonableMan is joking right?

Zimmerman is guilty because the Trayvon's brother is in a good college? So I assume the argument follows that anyone with a criminal brother deserves to be shot regardless of what they do.

Do your shoes have an "R" & "L" written on them?

Scott M said...

Do your shoes have an "R" & "L" written on them?

Undoubtedly. The important question is whether or not he got the "R" on the correct shoe.

Icepick said...

Is it wrong to defend yourself against potential students of two-year colleges, or only against potential students of four-year colleges?

It is wrong to defend yourself period, if someone on the left can claim you are white.

Elizabeth Warren, OTOH, would be justified in committing genocide against all white people because of her overwhelmingly Amerindian heritage.

It works something like that.

Also, no black person anywhere at any time has ever been less than a perfect little angel and, indeed, they are all magical, as attested to by the career of Morgan Freeman.

bagoh20 said...

That Trayvon-has-a-good-brother argument might be the stupidest thing I ever read. And we are all stupider for having been here today to see it.

AReasonableMan said...

Left Bank of the Charles said...
I think that those of us who think manslaughter would be a just verdict must be ready to concede that the only punishment George Zimmerman will receive is being put to trial.


As the OJ trial showed, it is a sucker's game to try to guess what juries will do. I agree that a manslaughter conviction is appropriate, but no one knows what the jury will do. If Zimmerman had a gun to my head I would guess a hung jury.

AReasonableMan said...

bagoh20 said...
That Trayvon-has-a-good-brother argument might be the stupidest thing I ever read.


You have clearly not read the hundreds of posts regarding "Lean," or "Purple Drank".

david7134 said...

If the guy had notes and did not disclose them prior to court, then he is in contempt. Any doctor that testifies in court, especially if he had done so more than once, knows that he must give all notes taken.

Freder Frederson said...

Is this trial taking place in the USA or in Totalfuckupastan?


Totalfuckupastan aka Florida.

Mr. D said...

Henry said...

Whitey Bulger

Whitey Bulger's Brother


Here's another brother combination:

WGN TV weatherman Tom Skilling

Enron majordomo Jeffrey Skilling


Ignorance is Bliss said...

If Zimmerman had a gun to my head I would guess a hung jury.

For starters, I'd recommend not criminally assaulting Zimmerman and threatening his life, since people who refrain from doing those things don't end up with his gun to their head.

And, assuming the judge does not do her job and direct a not-guilty verdict, I'd bet on a hung jury too.

I was on a jury once for a wrongful death lawsuit. There was a woman on the jury who could not look past the tragedy of the death and how somebody should have done something to prevent it. They never bothered with the question of whether the current defendant was actually in any way negligent in the death. ( The evidence clearly showed that they were not. )

Lem said...

Copies given to lawyers to be destroyed.

notes to self.

make a DNA riff... preferably tied to lawyers... David Banner... The Incredible Hulk... anger lawyers DNA...

I got nothing honey... I mean, your honor.

ironrailsironweights said...

I have attended a similar gym and I would agree in the more general sense that stocky men are, in general, much stronger that skinny teens. Usually there is no comparison.

Strength in general is a slow physical attribute to develop. Quite likely the slowest, in fact. It is worth noting that in powerlifting, the purest form of strength sport,* competitors are in the "Juniors" category until age 23, which is something that would be unheard-of in most other sports (on the other end, the "Masters" category does not begin until 40).

Who knows with Zimmerman, but the argument of the intimidatingly overwhelming black youth, personified in Trayvon Martin, is just so much hocus pocus.

I am mystified why there is such a general fear of black youths, or at least fear of a single, apparently unarmed black youth. Most of the physical attacks by blacks that engender such fear involve multiple and/or armed attackers.

* = Olympic-style weightlifting is also a strength sport, but involves more technical skill than powerlifting and is less of a test of pure strength

Peter

Paul Zrimsek said...

One child grows up to be
Somebody that just loves to learn yeah
Another child grows up to be Somebody we just love to burn

AReasonableMan said...

Rusty said...
EVERYONE has options.


Sadly this is not really true as a statistical matter. Increasing poverty, separation from mainstream culture etc decreases the probability of a good outcome. What Jahvaris shows is that Trayvon had some reasonable probability of a good outcome. I have been impressed over the years by the ability of big brothers to act as role models and scolds for younger brothers if the brothers are close. For an open mind this would suggest that such an outcome was at least possible for Trayvon.

bagoh20 said...

To continue my advancing of yesterday's Woman Haters Club, I need to ask the women here if they think it's fair that this trial about two men in a fight should be decided by an all female jury and judge. Do you feel confident they will see the obvious evidence of Zimmerman's innocence or are you thinking that it's still a toss up. I know if it was an all man jury and judge, I'd have little concern for a verdict not in line with the evidence. Do you consider an all woman jury and judge as a "jury of his peers" for Zimmerman?

Scott M said...

For an open mind this would suggest that such an outcome was at least possible for Trayvon.

Yet that's not what you said.

cassandra lite said...

Serious legal question: If Martin's mother can testify that the voice on the tape was her son, why can't the cop offer his opinion that Zimmerman was telling the truth?

Also, can Zimmerman's mom now take the stand and testify that the voice her son's?

AReasonableMan said...

ironrailsironweights said...
I am mystified why there is such a general fear of black youths, or at least fear of a single, apparently unarmed black youth.


In part this myth of the black male superman comes from pro sports, particularly NFL and pro boxing. It is instructive to watch an NBA 'fight', they fight like girls. The NBA players even make fun of it and compare the fights unfavorably to hockey fights. I've seen better fights amongst baseball players.

Scott M said...

Also, can Zimmerman's mom now take the stand and testify that the voice her son's?

That's a great question.

AReasonableMan said...

Scott M said...
Yet that's not what you said.


I am just shooting for some low hanging fruit at this point. Still haven't gotten any agreements. Now, if I had said Travyon was high on 'Perple Skank' and was headed to a life of crime reminiscent of Whitey Bulger, then I would be in the money.

AReasonableMan said...

cassandra lite said...
Also, can Zimmerman's mom now take the stand and testify that the voice her son's?


My understanding is yes.

Scott M said...

I am just shooting for some low hanging fruit at this point.

Just admit that saying "THIS is THE future Zimmerman cut short" (caps added for emphasis) is wrong and you're wrong for making the claim. Is that so hard?

You're not leaving any options open to chance with that comment. You're resigning Travon, had he not run into Zimmerman, with Jahvaris' life whether he wanted it or not.

It's a ridiculous statement in a couple different ways.

Chip Ahoy said...

Two days ago I spoke with a young Mexican person, who I must say is charming in every way. I asked if he was following Egypt and he said no he was more interested in Trayvon Martin because it paralleled his own experience, his younger brother was similarly shot and killed for no reason. These things are similar, it struck him right off, so Zimmerman is guilty and that is that. This is heartfelt and there will no budging it. And I sensed, "Damn, I'm in the presence of a weak mind, one directed by pure emotion. I don't even know where to start without totally upsetting him and I do not want that." Instead I said empathetically, "So you really feel this directly."

"Yes, I do."

Some conversations do not go very far.

I'd have to start getting him to say himself how the cases are dissimilar and go outward from there, not enough time for all that. So it's, "Thank you for being so helpful, alway a pleasure coming in here," instead. And so I feel my life composed of such intercourses is gliding across the surface of stupid.

Revenant said...

It's a ridiculous statement in a couple different ways.

And yet quite a few of you persist in treating it like it was a serious statement.

Icepick said...

LORD help me, I was skimming and accidentally read a post by ARM.

ARM wrote: What Jahvaris shows is that Trayvon had some reasonable probability of a good outcome.

Bullshit, it shows nothing of the kind. If I bet on double zeroes at a roulette wheel and hit 00 on the spin, that doesn't mean that I have a reasonable probability of hitting it again when I let all the money ride on double zeroes.

Even the two of them in the same family doesn't mean much unless their circumstances were very similar. That does not appear to be the case.

Sweet Jesus, the way ARM kills brain cells he should be brought up on crimes against humanity for genocide.

Lem said...

Do you consider an all woman jury and judge as a "jury of his peers" for Zimmerman?

That's the $64 thousand dollar question, which in todays money is like ... $64 thousand dollars?

I get the feeling that's wrong but, I'm not good at math from the past.

bagoh20 said...

"For an open mind this would suggest that such an outcome was at least possible for Trayvon.

How was punching Zimmerman in the face, and pounding him while sitting on his chest advancing his illustrious career? Maybe Trayvon had different desires for his future than what you imagine he wanted. Do you think his brother would have done that too?

AReasonableMan said...

Scott M, I think you are missing the point. What Jahvaris shows is that Trayvon had good options available to him. He was not some piece of ghetto shit, predetermined to end up as a thug gang-banger. In fact his brother, our best estimator of his likely path, is a senior in a decent four year research university.

Icepick said...

And so I feel my life composed of such intercourses is gliding across the surface of stupid.

Yes, but it is imperative that that Mexican, and tens of millions more just like him/her, be made citizens immediately.

Also, I immediately have to wonder if the brother was shot for no reason, or if he was shot for a perfectly good reason. I'd place a small wager on the latter.

Icepick said...

How was punching Zimmerman in the face, and pounding him while sitting on his chest advancing his illustrious career?

How do you think the self-described No Limit Nigga was going to get into a four year college AND GRADUATE without beating the shit out of everyone in the Admissions office and all his professors along the way?

Hell, if he got into an Ivy League school there's a good chance all the people he beat up would have believed they deserved it. (They would, but not for the reasons they'd imagine.)

Scott M said...

Scott M, I think you are missing the point.

I'm not missing anything. Your statement speaks for itself.

For all the people who have slandered Trayvon Martin's character his brother Jahvaris Fulton is a valuable corrective. The two brothers were close and look similar. Jahvaris is senior in a good four-year college. This is the future that Zimmerman cut short.

There's simply no intelligent way you can make that claim, no matter how you try to couch it after the fact. You're making an appeal to emotion because there's no logical way to back up your statement.

garage mahal said...

He was not some piece of ghetto shit, predetermined to end up as a thug gang-banger.

Dude. He was black. End of story.

If the races were reversed you could bet your mortgage that they would have taken the other side.

Kansas City said...

I wish Ann would have blogged more about the trial. It is interesting in that there is no way the State has sufficient evidence to convict. The only question is whether the judicial system is so bad as to produce a guilty verdict.

Even then, if there are decent appellate judges, it seems like the trial judge has been very anti-defendant and probably committed much error during the course of the case.

It is interesting that these name prosecutors are so incompetent in court. Trying a lawsuit is very hard and unforgiving work (except that one side has to win, so a bad lawyer can sometimes win). I don't even think O'Meara is all that good. He is much better than the prosecutors, but does not control witnesses on cross. I have no idea why he asked the mother a single question today, but he apparently asked something like, "as his mother, are you absolutely certain that was his voice?" What did he exepct her to say?

Chip Ahoy said...

Icepick, I that's exactly what I was thinking. I would ask about tats, gang association, or friends, facebook postings and such, my own little brother, precious thing, came running in through the garage, "hide me, hide me, the cops are after me!" Sure enough, the little punk was out there stealing bikes. A cop read him his rights right there in our den and he cried. Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha, I bet he doesn't even remember that.

Icepick said...

What Jahvaris shows is that Trayvon had good options available to him.

Which (a) is not what you claimed above, and (b) is completely irrelevant to the matter at hand.

Michael K said...

"While it is true that brothers are not going to have identical lives it is remarkable how often they have very similar lives. They are raised the same way and have the same expectations of life."

You are such a fool. I examine kids going into the military. A month ago I had a 25 year old black kid who has 17 half siblings. He told me he didn't care if he ever saw any of them again. He is going in the army and getting his life straight. He spent most of his youth in foster care.

He looks like a winner to me. The half sibs, not so much.

Big Mike said...

Nice analysis of this case by Andrew Branca, author of The Law of Self-Defense, 2nd Ed. (If interested, please purchase through the Althouse Amazon portal.)

Icepick said...


Dude. He was black. End of story.


No, the end of the story was that he jumped another man and was pounding his head into the pavement - and the other man happened to be armed. When Trayvon got shot and died (while committing assault and battery), THAT was the end of his story.

Michael K said...

"
7/5/13, 2:03 PM
Blogger Titus said...

Are all medical examiners Asian?"

No the LA County ME is a south Asian with an unpronounceable name. He is a nice enough guy but as dumb as that guy in the trial. Noguchi was the previous LA Coroner and he was pretty dumb.

damikesc said...

Obama's half brother lives in a hut in Africa.

Jimmy Carter's brother was a drunk.

Bill Clinton's brother was a druggie and bad lounge act.

Apparently, success isn't genetic.

Icepick said...

So the Professor has a theory that perhaps the prosecution is going through the motions to demonstrate how poor the case against Zimmerman is, to quell potential racial hostilities. What if the prosecution executes their plan so well that it just looks like they're throwing the case to protect some white guy? It isn't as if there isn't precedent for this in the South (although I don't really think Seminole County should count as such anymore). That might merely fuel racial animosity instead.

Really, at this point the prosecution just looks completely inept. OTOH, the defense looked inept in the Casey Anthony trial and she walked. Who knows?

AReasonableMan said...

damikesc said...
Bill Clinton's brother was a druggie and bad lounge act.


So in fact quite similar.

Big Mike said...

If the races were reversed you could bet your mortgage that they would have taken the other side.

And if you had, you'd have lost your house. Oh! Wait a minute! Perhaps you meant that your fellow "Progressives" would have taken a different side. Yup. You'd be safe. Some of us care about things like justice and reality, and all you care about garage, is the color a person's skin. In that way you're kind of like the KKK from the days of my youth.

Icepick said...

No, not all medical examiners are asian.


Dr. G, or Dr. Jan Garavaglia, is the Chief Medical Examiner with Florida's District Nine Medical Examiner's office in Orlando, Florida. District 9 is Orange and Osceola Counties. Seminole is in another district.

campy said...

Do you consider an all woman jury and judge as a "jury of his peers" for Zimmerman?

No, I consider it a jury of his superiors.

Chip Ahoy said...

))) ot alert (((

? have you noticed how Blogger has responded to our pleas and made valued comments less disappearable by making them impossible to disappear? Wan't that nice? If having attempted a comment and changed your mind, you must now definitely walk out.

bagoh20 said...

My brother was murdered in very similar circumstances which I've described here before. He was called outside to fight, and as soon as he walked out the door, he was shot in the heart. My brother was a 6'4" U.S. Marine, so the shooter did probably fear for his safety at that point, but the shooter was drunk, aggressive, on parole, illegally armed, threatened to "kill someone tonight" and insisted on fighting my brother who tried repeatedly to avoid it.

Although the roles of sympathy and who is armed are reversed for me in this shooting, the whole point of this trial is who forced the decision. Trayvon is the one who created the situation where there was no option for Zimmerman but to shoot him or accept great bodily harm or death himself. He is the one who gave Zimmerman only that choice to make. Trayvon had the choice to go home or confront Zimmerman nonviolently. He chose the something else. He chose to attack.

Icepick said...

? have you noticed how Blogger has responded to our pleas and made valued comments less disappearable by making them impossible to disappear? Wan't that nice? If having attempted a comment and changed your mind, you must now definitely walk out.

Brennan had a comment disappear on this thread, but I see it has returned. So, yay Blogger, or something.

OTOH, this is all part of Google's collaboration to make certain that everything everybody does is reported to the NSA. So BOO Blogger!

Harold said...

To continue the shoe discussion from earlier, both of his shoe have TGIF in the heel cup- toes go in first.

JPS said...

bagoh20:

I realize this doesn't do you much good, but I am truly sorry to read of your terrible loss.

jr565 said...

garage mahal wrote;
Dude. He was black. End of story.

If the races were reversed you could bet your mortgage that they would have taken the other side.


Why? You're still going by the whole "white hispanic" racial thing? The guy is hispanic. And according to the left, we hate hispanics too.
But it is typical that everyone here is pointing to GLARING holes in the Trayvon story and things like evidence, but you're convicting us based on racism.

The evidence shows that Trayvon was a No Limit Nigga (his words) and that he sold drugs, was potentially involved in burglaries, was looking for codeine, had been kicked out of school three times, had a bag full of womens jewelry and was interested in MMA street fights.

Again, it doesn't mean that he deserved to be shot because of it, but it does point to a budding thuggishness.

jr565 said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
bagoh20 said...

JPS, Thanks. It was 20 years ago, and the murderer died in prison a couple years ago. Time does help.

jr565 said...

"If the races were reversed you could bet your mortgage that they would have taken the other side."

You can bet your bottom dollar that if the races were reversed, it would be not a civil rights issue worthy of more than a few paragraphs in the local paper for YOUR SIDE.

Anglelyne said...

bagoh20: To continue my advancing of yesterday's Woman Haters Club, I need to ask the women here if they think it's fair that this trial about two men in a fight should be decided by an all female jury and judge.

Interesting question. But I'm afraid that my female brain's naturally tenuous grasp on rationality has been infected and further eroded by exposure to ARM's spectacular displays of unreason on this thread, so there is now no chance in hell that I could think my way through your question.

Do you feel confident they will see the obvious evidence of Zimmerman's innocence or are you thinking that it's still a toss up.

Toss up, sad to say.

I know if it was an all man jury and judge, I'd have little concern for a verdict not in line with the evidence. Do you consider an all woman jury and judge as a "jury of his peers" for Zimmerman?

Would you have little concern for a verdict not in line with the evidence, if your hypothetical male jurors and judge were black?

Anglelyne said...

bagoh20: Very sorry about your brother.

bagoh20 said...

If the races were reversed, we wouldn't be having this discussion at all.

I'm 100% confident that if Zimmerman were a Black neighborhood watch member and all the other details were the same except Trayvon was a young white guy in hoodie that I would absolutely defend the use of lethal force when attacked. It also wouldn't matter to me what color the attacker was, or if he was in a suit and tie and just returning from volunteering at the orphanage. Once he attacked, like Trayvon did, it's irrelevant.

Joe Schmoe said...

If this woman judge and the all-women jury are like the woman-dominated public school systems, then Zimmerman will at least be sentenced to a lifetime of taking Ritalin to quell his 'male' zeal for activity. He'd never be in this mess if he'd just stayed at home, seated quietly at his desk with his feet pointing forward.

poppa india said...

I shouldn't bother, but...ARM, for your "good brother" theory to hold water, you have to show that the older brother behaved the same way Trayvon did, including fighting, drugs, possible stealing, and beating on a guy who asked what he was doing. If he did this and was lucky enough not to be shot, then the 2 lives are comparable. Or maybe, just maybe, the older brother behaved in such a way that he is able to make a good life for himself. Too bad Trayvon didn't.

Cedarford said...

What Jahvaris shows is that Trayvon had some reasonable probability of a good outcome. I have been impressed over the years by the ability of big brothers to act as role models and scolds for younger brothers if the brothers are close. For an open mind this would suggest that such an outcome was at least possible for Trayvon.

================
Lets just say the role model "mentoring" wasn't very effective on the younger brother.
Trayvon, multiple suspensions, bad grades, heavy drug use, fighting - was bound for the thug life.

Maybe the brother will have some recrimination on things he might have told Trayvon - like jumping and attacing perfect strangers could end up getting him in jail or worse.
Maybe the absentee mother should have laid the law down and grounded him after each suspension.

But sometimes Mothers don't know the little monster in the basement had a complete spreadsheet of mass murderers, and the successful older brother Lanza has graduated college,moved out, has a 6 figure international accounting job, and has no ability to influence and stop little Lanza.

AReasonableMan said...

poppa india said...
ARM, for your "good brother" theory to hold water, you have to show that the older brother behaved the same way Trayvon did, including fighting, drugs, possible stealing, and beating on a guy who asked what he was doing.


So fighting and doing drugs would fall into my normal for any 17 year old boy. Based on his THC levels, which have a long half-life, Trayvon did not use drugs to a significant degree. I suspect he was not much of a fighter. The other two claims are in dispute, one at trial.

twinsdaddy said...

Somewhere Tom Wolfe is laughing his ass off

Cedarford said...

Another very simple thing - Zimmerman had grass stains on his back. One Angel-boy, he had grass stains on his knees from the fight, none on his back.

AReasonableMan said...

Cedarford said...
But sometimes Mothers don't know the little monster in the basement had a complete spreadsheet of mass murderers, and the successful older brother Lanza has graduated college,moved out, has a 6 figure international accounting job, and has no ability to influence and stop little Lanza.


Cedarford, Adam Lanza's mother was worried that he had a genetically based mental illness from grade school onwards. She was probably right. I don't think this is a fair comparison.

bagoh20 said...

"Would you have little concern for a verdict not in line with the evidence, if your hypothetical male jurors and judge were black?"

I absolutely would be concerned, and for the same reason: the power of and appeals to emotion. I hate that it's true, but I'm not going to ignore what I see every day. It may make me a racist and a sexist, but I bet anyone who had to face such a jury that is clearly not of their peers would feel the same.

Maybe I'm being unfair to women, but I do know some, and even the smart ones seem to me to be much easier played, suckered, and sold bullshit. That's why I'm asking. Is it me, or do women agree with that?

poppa india said...

ARM, knocking a man down and beating his head on the sidewalk aren't normal 17 year old behavior. Most places it is a crime. Anyway, you avoided my point, did the older brother behave in the same ways that Trayvon did?

Methadras said...

AReasonableMan said...

I am just shooting for some low hanging fruit at this point. Still haven't gotten any agreements. Now, if I had said Travyon was high on 'Perple Skank' and was headed to a life of crime reminiscent of Whitey Bulger, then I would be in the money.


So you are admitting to trolololololololololololololololo

Icepick said...

Another very simple thing - Zimmerman had grass stains on his back. One Angel-boy, he had grass stains on his knees from the fight, none on his back.

Well, see, that's easily explained. After jumping Martin and beating the crap out of him (Zimmerman was on top, the screams were dear little Trayvon), Zimmerman shot Martin in the chest. Then, Zimmerman patched up all the damage to Martin's body (the bloodied face, the bruises to the body, the broken nose the abrasions to the back of the head), took off Martin's clothes and cleaned all the grass stains off the back of Martin's clothes, put them back on Martin, broke his own nose, rolled around on the wet grass, pulled Martin on top of him to get Martin's knees grass-stained, bruised up some knuckles on Martin - and then did all the things Zimmerman claimed to do after he had shot Martin.

It's very easy to explain when you think about it. Especially if you've only got two working brain cells. Which is all I've got left after a brush with ARM.

Actually, it is possible to believe that the assistant ME missed all of that, given how he performed today.

AReasonableMan said...

Cedarford said...
Another very simple thing - Zimmerman had grass stains on his back. One Angel-boy, he had grass stains on his knees from the fight, none on his back.


There is little doubt that Martin at some point got the upper hand on Zimmerman in a physical confrontation. There is no injury to Martin's right hand, he is right-handed, and very minor injuries to his left.

Icepick said...

Maybe I'm being unfair to women, but I do know some, and even the smart ones seem to me to be much easier played, suckered, and sold bullshit.

And thank God for it, else most of us would never get laid.

Uh, did I just post that to the itnertubez?

ironrailsironweights said...

In part this myth of the black male superman comes from pro sports, particularly NFL and pro boxing. It is instructive to watch an NBA 'fight', they fight like girls. The NBA players even make fun of it and compare the fights unfavorably to hockey fights. I've seen better fights amongst baseball players.

Of course black football players and boxers (and other athletes) train long and hard and diligently in order to succeed in those sports. Trayvon was not an athlete by any stretch of the term. He had participated sporadically in a children's football league, last playing at age 13.

Great point about comparing NBA fights vs. NHL fights. Keep in mind that hockey players (almost all non-black) throw far better punches than their (mostly black) NBA counterparts even though they're on skates, with much inferior leverage.

Peter

ironrailsironweights said...

In part this myth of the black male superman comes from pro sports, particularly NFL and pro boxing. It is instructive to watch an NBA 'fight', they fight like girls. The NBA players even make fun of it and compare the fights unfavorably to hockey fights. I've seen better fights amongst baseball players.

Of course black football players and boxers (and other athletes) train long and hard and diligently in order to succeed in those sports. Trayvon was not an athlete by any stretch of the term. He had participated sporadically in a children's football league, last playing at age 13.

Great point about comparing NBA fights vs. NHL fights. Keep in mind that hockey players (almost all non-black) throw far better punches than their (mostly black) NBA counterparts even though they're on skates, with much inferior leverage.

Peter

damikesc said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
CWJ said...

If the races were reversed, there wouldn't be an out of state race hustler bringing it up weeks after the fact in order to turn it into a national cause and political event. In other words, none of us outside the Sanford area would have even heard of it, and there would be no trial.

Unless, of course, ARM and tradguy insisted the shooter be brought up on manslaughter charges.

AReasonableMan said...

Icepick said...
It's very easy to explain when you think about it. Especially if you've only got two working brain cells. Which is all I've got left after a brush with ARM.


I feel an overwhelming personal responsibility for this outcome and you have my deepest sympathies. Although very few brains cells are likely to regrow unassisted, newer stem cell therapies may offer some hope in future.

Inga said...

I suspect based on the last couple of days, that should Zimmerman be convicted, we will hear much blame placed on an all woman jury.

I feel it coming. Expect it in fact. If they acquit him, we will hear nary a peep about the all woman jury.

damikesc said...

ARM, touche. Solid point.

AReasonableMan said...

Inga said...
I suspect based on the last couple of days, that should Zimmerman be convicted, we will hear much blame placed on an all woman jury.


'White' trumped 'female' for the defense attorneys.

Rusty said...

AReasonableMan said...
Rusty said...
EVERYONE has options.

Sadly this is not really true as a statistical matte


Aw christ.

damikesc said...

Shockingly, Inga, people don't praise juries when they make the correct decision.

CWJ said...

Re: the grass stains.

GZ forced TM to kneel on the grass and then shot him execution-style.

Because of the recoil, the gun flew backwards breaking GM's nose, causing him to slip on the grass and fell backward getting grass stains on his back while hitting the back of his head on the sidewalk.

Yeah, that's the ticket.

gadfly said...

Jeralyn says that the prosecutor guy twisted the facts of this case in arguing against acquital and also misstated facts about like-case cites that he used in his argument.

bagoh20 said...

"should Zimmerman be convicted, we will hear much blame placed on an all woman jury.

I feel it coming. Expect it in fact. If they acquit him, we will hear nary a peep about the all woman jury."


To me the verdict seems obvious, so yes, if he is convicted, I need to explain that stupidity somehow. If it was all men, I admit that I wouldn't blame their sex, but I would be looking for something. How could they get this so wrong? The only way I could see that happening with this evidence would require a jury of Black racists, the White guilt afflicted, haters of guns, or suckers for emotional appeals, or just plain dummies. When I see what women fell for in the last two Presidential elections - especially the last one - I'm not confident at all about an all woman jury. 2012 was a very bad year for the credibility of the average female American citizen. I love them, but many failed us, and it was immensely clear why. They fell for lies, obvious, even silly lies.

Anglelyne said...

bagoh20: I absolutely would be concerned, and for the same reason: the power of and appeals to emotion. I hate that it's true, but I'm not going to ignore what I see every day. It may make me a racist and a sexist, but I bet anyone who had to face such a jury that is clearly not of their peers would feel the same.

Well, that was what I was trying to clarify. (Lol, you didn't seriously think I was going for a "racism" gotcha here, did you?) You said you'd be confident that male jurors and judge would weigh the evidence objectively - until I introduced the modifier "black", at which point you conceded that they, too, would be swayed by emotion. I'm just interested in how the "peer" factor intersects with/diverges from the sex-difference factor. (And really, I don't care about anybody's "racism" or "sexism" - concerns with which usually do nothing but introduce "boring" and "stupid" into a discussion.)

Maybe I'm being unfair to women,...

No, they is or they ain't. No fair or unfair about it.

...but I do know some, and even the smart ones seem to me to be much easier played, suckered, and sold bullshit. That's why I'm asking. Is it me, or do women agree with that?

I'd tend to agree - having known women, including jury colleagues, who exasperatingly fulfilled every stereotype of female inability to engage in disinterested reasoning ever promulgated. (Though I can certainly think of circumstances where I wouldn't trust the objectivity of males of average intelligence and character farther than I could throw them, if I were a woman on trial.)

But that's why I think bringing up the "peer" thing, as you did, is interesting. Fewer women than men demonstrate the capacity to weigh trial evidence objectively, but I think that capacity is pretty rare in humans, period. In a random crowd, if I had to bet, I'd put my money on "intelligent males who come from a tradition that values fairness and impersonal standards of justice". (Dog whistle!) That's an anomaly in the world. Most humans are tribal and crazy.

Revenant said...

If the races were reversed you could bet your mortgage that they would have taken the other side.

If the races were reversed? Hm.

So you've got a white guy with a history of violence, drug use and run-ins with the law, whose last words consisted of paranoid speculation about the "creepy-ass nigger" following him.

Said "nigger" has had his ass kicked, while the dead white man has bruised knuckles and a single bullet wound. And it also turns out the black guy had called the police and asked them to come over just before the confrontation.

Yeah, I kinda doubt there'd be a trial there. Maybe fifty years ago "the black guy was stalking the white guy" could have avoided being laughed out of court, but today? Please. If there was, you'd hear plenty of bleating about how it proved the system was racist and that black men shouldn't trust it. :)

Icepick said...

Inga, if the jury convicts I won't blame it on the fact that they're all women. I'll blame it on my assumption that they're being intimidated into that judgement.

avwh said...

If the jury convicts, I'd blame it on both:
They were intimidated, and
They refused to weigh the evidence, and "bought" the emotional appeal of the prosecution (not unlike how most women voted in 2012).

rcocean said...

GZ is obviously innocent.

But its a all female jury. So, emotion rules and facts are irrelevant.

Its hard enough to get dumb men to rules based on reason and the law. With women its impossible.

rcocean said...

No, if women convict GZ, it will be for the same reason they let OJ off..

Its absurd to think that a sex that likes "Baba" Walters, or Oprah, or Rosanne, has any business deciding real life, adult, criminal cases.

Yes, I know, "bitches like you" are different, but you're not the typical Womyn.

Paul said...

While I feel Zimmerman will be found innocent, still keep in mind that if there was justice in the law, Christ would not have been crucified.

Keep your fingers crossed because juries, even with obvious evidence, are a fickled lot.

But even if convicted, I see lots and lots of grounds for appeals.

jr565 said...

AReasonalbe man wrote:

For all the people who have slandered Trayvon Martin's character his brother Jahvaris Fulton is a valuable corrective. The two brothers were close and look similar. Jahvaris is senior in a good four-year college. This is the future that Zimmerman cut short.

I didn't slander anything. I just pointed out the truth about his character (available on his Facebook pages, as well as the history that we all know is there. Trayvons brother seems like an upstanding guy. Trayvon, can barely string together a sentence on Facebook that isn't improper English. And he, unlike his brother, wasnt kicked out of school for thuggish behavior.

One brother who's good doesnt mean that the other brother isn't a thug. You can see that in your own Family (or, I can see it in mine) one of my moms sister's was a user, and a drunk and an all around jerk (until she got cancer then actually seemed to become a decent person) and both her kids are drunks and users. Meanwhile my mothers other sister is a goody two shoes. And one of her kids is a goodie two shoes and the other is a problem child. I imagine this is true for most families.

Sly Stone even wrote a song about it:

One child grows up to be
Somebody that just loves to learn
And another child grows up to be
Somebody you'd just love to burn

jr565 said...

"So you've got a white guy with a history of violence, drug use and run-ins with the law, whose last words consisted of paranoid speculation about the "creepy-ass nigger" following him."
Yes, great point.
The Trayvon defenders keep ignoring the racial element of the crime. If the roles were reversed, not only would the White Zimmerman (playing Trayvon's role) not be defended, if he lived would probably be charged with a hate crime by their side.

And if the facts were the same but the races were reversed, I would defend the guy who was getting his head bashed in, screaming for help who used lethal force to defend himself.

kentuckyliz said...

The state and/or Crump forgot to coach JF to speak softly in a high pitched voice on the stand.

He has a nice deep resonant voice.

GZ has a meek soft high pitched voice that the jury heard on all those tapes and videos that the State presented. (GZ "testified" without having to take the stand and be subject to cross examination.)

Oops!

This judge has been bitchsmacked by the DCA for not doing a JOA when it should have been done. She's a former prosecutor.

MOM did such a lengthy exposition in the JOA request and the request to drop M2 as a procedural matter, to lay the groundwork for overturn or appeal or to even request a directed verdict when defense rests their case. He dotted his i's and crossed his t's.

Andrew Branca has jury profiles up. Some nurses, security, CCW holders, and a DV vic. There are signs there that they're not a bunch of delicate flowers. There is potential there that they will be able to grasp the defense's case.

TmjUtah said...

"Dr. Shiping Bao is an associate medical examiner. Presumably he isn't going to get promoted anytime soon. Alternately, he's about to be appoint Surgeon General by the Administration."

Icepick, that should be carved into a mountain face somewhere.

I'll be chuckling all weekend.

Well done!

kentuckyliz said...

Remember, the weekend before they were sequestered, the Chastin home invasion beatdown nannycam video was all over the news. There have been allusions to the home invasion that happened in the neighborhood that was a major impetus for the neighborhood to start a NWP. A mother with a baby was at home upstairs while her house was being robbed downstairs.

I wonder if any of these people (incl. witnesses) live in the neighborhood any more. Doesn't sound like it.

Geo's new home address is being RT's all over twitter, please RT, you know what to do. I screencapped to PDF and posted a warning that if anything happened I would furnish my records to investigators. Too many leads yes, but perhaps corroboration if one nutjob acts on this incitement.

I livetweeted direct quotes from State witnesses and received all manner of threats, foul language, and racist comments from Trayvonites. I tweeted that this was happening with the hashtag #watchthetrial

kentuckyliz said...

So TM could have ended up like his brother. The alternate is true too. Perhaps encountering severe consequences early on saved a vast amount of loss of property and/or lives.

I wonder if TM wanted a kill for gang initiation purposes. TM's dad had a gang tat on his neck in early pictures, that were tatted over as praying hands. Doing a kill is known as a gang initiation activity. That's why TM wanted to do it on the phone with RJ listening, so there'd be evidence. He'd snapchat a pic for proof and increase his street cred.

GZ at BMI 31 obese looked like easy pickings.

Bao testified today that TM lived long enough to learn from his mistake before death. The second part is mine.

Bruce Hayden said...

Why are these medical examiners foreign, and this one so hard to understand, etc?

My guess is that physicians who speak better English, etc, tend to make more in private practice. So, those who have problems in this area tend to work places where they are less likely to have to deal with paying customers, such as working for the government. Remember, government work pays best comparatively for lower and semi skilled positions, and the more training required, the worse the government pays in comparison to the private sector.

Rhythm and Balls said...

...now things seem quite chaotic.

Rather like the initial incident itself.

Icepick said...

Just because:

Yeah, this is a story of a famous dog
For the dog that chases it's tail will be dizzy
These are clapping dogs, rhythmic dogs
Harmonic dogs, house dogs, street dogs
Dog of the world unite
Dancin' dogs
Yeah
Countin' dogs, funky dogs
Nasty dogs (Dog)

Atomic dog
Atomic dog

Like the boys
When they're out there walkin' the streets
May compete
Nothin' but the dog in ya

Bow-wow-wow-yippie-yo-yippie-yeah
Bow-wow-yippie-yo-yippie-yeah
Bow-wow-wow-yippie-yo-yippie-yeah
Bow-wow-yippie-yo-yippie-yeah

Like the boys
When they're out there walkin' the streets
May compete
Nothin' but the dog in ya

Why must I feel like that
Oh, why must I chase the cat

Like the boys
When they're out there walkin' the streets
May compete
Nothin' but the dog in ya

Ruff
Ruff
Ruff

Why must I feel like that
Why must I chase the cat
Nothin' but the dog in me

Why must I feel like that
Why must I chase the cat
Nothin' but the dog in me

Why must I feel like that
Why must I chase the cat
Nothin' but the dog in me

Why must I feel like that
Why must I chase the cat
Nothin' but the dog in me

Do the dogcatcher, dogcatcher
Do the dogcatcher
Do the dogcatcher, dogcatcher
Do the dogcatcher

Do the dogcatcher, baby, do the dogcatcher
Ooh

Why must I feel like that
Why must I chase the cat
Nothin' but the dog in me

Why must I feel like that
Why must I chase the cat
Nothin' but the dog in me

Bow-wow-yippie-yo-yippie-yeah
Bow-wow-wow-yippie-yo-yippie-yeah
Bow-wow-yippie-yo-yippie-yeah

Just walkin' the dog
Oh, atomic dog

Futuristic bow-wow

Ruff

Leader of the pack
Wild dog

Why must I feel like that
Why must I chase the cat
Just the dog in me
Nothin' but the dog in me

Æthelflæd said...

bagoh20 said...

" To continue my advancing of yesterday's Woman Haters Club, I need to ask the women here if they think it's fair that this trial about two men in a fight should be decided by an all female jury and judge. Do you feel confident they will see the obvious evidence of Zimmerman's innocence or are you thinking that it's still a toss up. I know if it was an all man jury and judge, I'd have little concern for a verdict not in line with the evidence. Do you consider an all woman jury and judge as a "jury of his peers" for Zimmerman?"

Except most of the most vociferous commenters that support Trayvon here are male. But yeah, I don't think an all-woman jury is a good thing. Or an all-male. I don't understand how that happens. I personally believe this has been a political railroading of Zimmerman from the get-go.

Icepick said...

Except most of the most vociferous commenters that support Trayvon here are male.

Yeah, but we all know they're just a bunch of ....

No, that's just too easy!

Æthelflæd said...

"Yeah, but we all know they're just a bunch of ..."

LOL

Kansas City said...

The bias of people sometimes come out so clearly. It works both ways, but it it more obvious in the anti-zimmerman people. The notion that an apparnetly nice half brother of Martin is somehow proof of the life Martin would have found is silly. Any honest person with reservations about Zimmerman's actions would concede there is not proof that zimmerman did anything critical. To me, the most telling evidence that Zimmerman is telling the truth is that the night of the incident, he gave an account that was fully consistent with the one neighbor who had a good view of the situation. Zimmerman's account matched up with the witness - the guy who saw the black guy doing a "ground and pound" on the white guy. Case closed.

Joseph Blieu said...

AReasonableMan said...

In fact his brother, our best estimator of his likely path, is a senior in a decent four year research university.
_____________________

If his brother is your best estimator of Travon's path you need to add a few more variables to your model.

Dante said...

Having just listened to the M.E. testimony, the only thing I take away from it is that he is incredibly concerned about perjuring himself.

Maybe because he was originally from China.

Chris Valle said...

@ARM I am willing to bet if a racist thug attacked your son you would feel differently about the dead bigots future potential. Given facts not in evidence (photos in TM's phone of him with a firearm, his history of violence, and a history or disrespect for rules and authority, evidenced by his scholastic record and suspensions); I dare say that GZ ended the life of a bigoted criminal that would be spending a large part of his life incarcerated for victimizing creepy ass crackers. To see people act like this is a bad thing blows my mind. If it was a black shooter and a white attacker making comments about a creepy ass nigger there would be no sympathy for the mother of the attacker who clearly raised at least one bigoted, violent criminal. In fact if it was a white teenager making racial slurs before attacking a black man, the same people wanting justice for the aggressor in this case would be arguing that the black man did a good thing and the white teenager if he lived should be charged with a hate crime. When TM attacked the creepy ass cracker he committed a hate crime and the fact that he is dead is a relief to me.

ironrailsironweights said...

I wonder if TM wanted a kill for gang initiation purposes. TM's dad had a gang tat on his neck in early pictures, that were tatted over as praying hands. Doing a kill is known as a gang initiation activity. That's why TM wanted to do it on the phone with RJ listening, so there'd be evidence. He'd snapchat a pic for proof and increase his street cred.
GZ at BMI 31 obese looked like easy pickings.


Interesting theory, but unlikely. One thing about ghetto gangbangers, well other than the fact that most of them have subhuman I.Q. scores of course, is that by and large they're quite cowardly. Yes, they'll attack people, but only when they have an overwhelming numerical advantage, such as in flashmobs, or possibly when the opponent is clearly at a physical disadvantage. One-on-one unarmed attacks against capable opponents are very uncommon among gangbangers and indeed among blacks in general.

Peter

Kansas City said...

It is silly, and obviously anti-Zimmerman bias, to claim the older half brother is the best estimator of Martin's speculative future. Obviously, other factors like Martin's conduct are far better bases to estimate a future.

And, on the facts of the night, how can so many people ignore that Martin had plenty of time to run/walk/stroll back to his residence while Zimmerman was on the phone. Instead, he stayed in the area for some type of confrontation with Zimmerman or perhaps other business. I'm also so tried of the ice tea issue. It was some type of waternmelon tea that young guys use in combination with skittles and some type of cold medicine to create a drug to get high.

Kansas City said...

Here is an explanation of how to use watermelon ice tea and skittles:

Early I mentioned the need for Trayvon Martin to feel sufficiently paranoid to lash out violently in the way Zimmerman and eye witnesses claim. This is important because a street drug that is popular in the young urban community known as Purple Drank or Lean produces those very side effects.

Purple Drank or Lean is a coctail that is created by mixing Robitussin or other over-the-counter cough medicines with, you guessed it, Skittles and Arizona Watermelon Juice, the flavor of tea Trayvon Martin was carrying that night.

Purple Drank also goes by other street names such as sizzurp, lean, syrup, sip sip, drank, barre, purple jelly and Texas tea. It has opiate like effects. Some of its side effects include confusion, agitation, and hallucinations among others.

Recoverycorp.org describes the drugs popularity in the hip hop community:


Purple drank grew out of the underground Houston hip-hop community in the 1990s along with chopped and screwed rap music—a slowed down, remixing of rap songs using skipped beats and scratching. DJ Screw aka Robert Earl Davis Jr. is said to have originated the style of the slow chopped and screwed, which compliments purple drank's effects of relaxing the user.
DJ Screw died in 2000 of a codeine overdose. That same year, Three 6 Mafia's song "Sippin' on Some Syrup" made purple drank mainstream. The group's song "Rainbow Colors" is about adding Jolly Rancher candy to create the desired rainbow.
Around this same time, evidence of purple drank began showing up across the South from Lafayette, Louisiana to Pensacola, FL.
In a 2004 University of Texas survey, according to a USA Today article, "8.3% of Texas secondary students reported having taken enough codeine syrup to get high."
Terrence Kiel, a defensive back with the San Diego Chargers was arrested in 2006 for illegally shipping cases of prescription cough syrup to Texas.
In a 2008 MTV interview with Lil Wayne, the rapper discusses his addiction to purple drink, and how hard it is to get off it, saying it feels like "death in your stomach."

Bruce Hayden said...

To add a bit to the discussion about TM's potential based on his half brother - one thing that ARM is not taking into account is that kids who don't graduate from HS, or do so late, are fearless likely to go to college, and if they do, to graduate. From what we know right now, there is little indication that TM was doing well in HS. Rather he seemed an indifferent student (though there are claims to the contrary), who at the time of his death was suspended from school (apparently for the third time). Not a hopeful sign. And if he indeed was at an age appropriate grade level at that time, and was working to get into college, he should have been in the midst of the application process. My kid, about the same age as the brother, had completed all their applications by mid-January. I think some state schools are later, but not by that much. And for those who suggest that he was a good student - I would suggest that that seemingly ended his last year in school, with his apparent concentration on drugs, fighting, and overall thuggish behavior.

Then, there is the issue that this is TM's half brother, who shared a mere 25% of his DNA. The equivalent of a first cousin. Besides, we really don't know who the brother lived with when. Arguably, one of TM's problems and disadvantages is that he was apparently primarily raised by women, which statistically is a recipe for disaster in life - for boys resulting in a much higher likelyhood of ending up in prison, drug addicted, and/or dead.

CWJ said...

Peter@7:36

Quite impressive. Now when you have something to offer other you're own bias and speculation, you can get back to us.

In some ways, I'm more repulsed by you than ARM and tradguy.

Jay said...

AReasonalbe man wrote:

For all the people who have slandered Trayvon Martin's character his brother Jahvaris Fulton is a valuable corrective. The two brothers were close and look similar. Jahvaris is senior in a good four-year college. This is the future that Zimmerman cut short


Without a doubt, the dumbest comment on this case so far.

JAL said...

I hope the prosecution isn't reading Branco's tweets. He was getting a bit giddy with the jokes as the testimony wore on.

Made it a fun read for a terrible prosecution.

If this were a movie script no one would buy it.

It's that bad.

And that unbelievable. (Guess the MEs don't watch the basic TV shows.)

JAL said...

I think I posted on the half brother elsewhwere.

They were not close. They might spend weekends together, sometimes, but this was not a close connection.

They were not Facebook friends, they did not follow each other on Twitter.

He wasn't sure it was Trayvon, push come to shove (or punch).

But the pressure of however and whoever one defines their parental units and the promise of a lot -- a real lot -- of money per lawyer Crump and the civil lawsuit TBA.

JAL said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
JAL said...

All this racial reconciliation -- and I am becoming such a cynic.

Hyphenated American said...

"What Jahvaris shows is that Trayvon had good options available to him. He was not some piece of ghetto shit, predetermined to end up as a thug gang-banger. In fact his brother, our best estimator of his likely path, is a senior in a decent four year research university."

This is amazingly stupid argument. What's the point of judging actual persons behavior in the present based on unprovable claims about his potential in the future? One could just as easily say that Martina's future was to be dead in 50 years, so what difference does it make if a Latino man shot him in self-defense?

But yes, I am sure Zimmerman should have asked Martin about his brother and what college he went to while the poor misunderstood kid was beating him up. That's what is expected these days if the person beating you are is black.

Mark said...

So suddenly ARM is a proponent of the idea that biology = destiny.

How very antediluvian.

Hyphenated American said...

"For all the people who have slandered Trayvon Martin's character his brother Jahvaris Fulton is a valuable corrective. The two brothers were close and look similar. "

You need to be a bit more specific on the slander things. Cause Martina's own mother clearly was not very enthusiastic about Martin.
Oh, and one more thing, is Fulton also a thug with golden teeth, and a drug issues? Cause that would mean these two are really similar. And the very last thing, did the prosecution introduce their closeness and similarity in the case under oath? I mean, surely if you are right, then the prosecutor delved deeply into Martina's great educational potential, right?

Mark said...

For that matter, were any of Fulton's go-to friends similar to State Witness #1?

Bless her heart, I'm sure she means well.

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