July 5, 2013

Trayvon's mother testifies.

Starting now, video here.

ADDED: The mother, Sabryna Fulton, testified for about 15 minutes, mostly only to identify the voice on the 911 recording as her son's. The cross-examination was short, focusing on: 1. the circumstances under which she first heard the recording (the basis of an argument to be made, presumably, that she was influenced by others or that she didn't react quite the same the first time), and 2. that she must have hoped the voice was her son's, since if it was not, she would have had to deal with the necessary (or nearly necessary) inference that her son was at least in part responsible for his own death.

120 comments:

Darrell said...

She testified about the voices on the various tapes and confirmed Trayvon's voice. Said he was in Heaven, too.

Darrell said...

Satan can't be called as a rebuttal witness because of that whole oath thing.

AllenS said...

She's part of the show.

rhhardin said...

Soap opera appeal!

Should a mother tell her son that his father, long believed dead, is alive, well, and a criminal?

Darrell said...

She also thinks that the State is proving its case. She is going to be surprised.

Lauderdale Vet said...

LEO friend of mine told me to pay careful attention to when they read the verdict, and to make sure that me and mine aren't out and about town when they do.

jr565 said...

So they should get zimmermans mom and have her testify that it was his voice too.
zimmerman says it was his voice, and the only eyewitness saw him under TM sreaming for help. The voice "experts" cancel each other out. What does the eyewitness testimony show? that it was Zimmerman screaming, not Trayvon.

Lem said...

Darrel @ 8:03

Hagar said...

So, Trayvon Martin was screaming for help while sitting atop Zimmermann and whaling the bejeezus out of him?

Icepick said...

LEO friend?

Ann Althouse said...

"The voice "experts" cancel each other out."

The voice experts were excluded as evidence other than the one who said the best identification of the voice would be from people who were familiar with the voice.

Michael said...

Poor woman. She certainly knows the truth. The self recriminations must be constant. And horrible.

jr565 said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
jr565 said...

"The voice experts were excluded as evidence other than the one who said the best identification of the voice would be from people who were familiar with the voice."

I was actually including family members as experts, because both parents say that its their sons voice. So those cancel out too. And Zimmerman says its his voice, and he knows his voice. All self serving, on both sides and not really proving the case in either way.
The only eyewitness says he saw TM on top of GZ and that GZ was screaming for help.

cubanbob said...

LEO friend of mine told me to pay careful attention to when they read the verdict, and to make sure that me and mine aren't out and about town when they do."

I only hope they release the verdict at midnight to give a chance to business to close and let the staff be home.

As for the screams I suppose the defense will put up their witnesses who will claim it was GZ doing the screaming.

jr565 said...

Hagar wrote:

So, Trayvon Martin was screaming for help while sitting atop Zimmermann and whaling the bejeezus out of him?


"Help! Help! I'm beating this creepy ass cracker's ass and I need help! Help me beat this creepy ass cracker!"

jacksonjay said...


GZ parents were not allowed in courtroom because they were potential witnesses, right? So how does TM's mother sit through the trial and then testify?

edutcher said...

I wonder how much of the prosecution's case, knowing how bad it is, might be trying to provide some cover for the bigs.

I can't see any other reason for her "identification"

Matthew Sablan said...

I wonder. Do you think she's ever heard Trayvon screaming for help like that before?

Matthew Sablan said...

"GZ parents were not allowed in courtroom because they were potential witnesses, right? So how does TM's mother sit through the trial and then testify?"

-- The answer I got is that, per victims' rights laws, they are allowed in, no matter what.

Deirdre Mundy said...

If only Zimmerman had had the sense to change his last name to something identifiably Hispanic like "Lopez" or "Gomez", this whole trial would never have happened.

It's only because the people in charge assumed he was a blond, blue-eyed neo-nazi that they started on about this case. And once they learned differently, they were too far gone to pull back....

Lauderdale Vet said...

LEO : Law Enforcement Officer.

X said...

AReasonableMan has already established that your vocal cords stop working when someone puts their hand over over your mouth and that once over the mouth the hand never moves ever, even when punching.

ironrailsironweights said...

There are two skills every man should have:
(1) how to throw a punch; and
(2) how to take a punch.

George Zimmerman obviously never learned either skill. His incompetence lead to his being overpowered and beaten by a scrawny teenaged whom he outweighed by at least 40 pound [note: if you think Trayvon was a tough streetfighter just because he was black, you are hopelessly deluded]. Because of his incompetence he had to rely on his gun to save his sorry scrotum, and look what happened.

Let this sordid affair be an object lesson to men.

Peter

edutcher said...

Lauderdale Vet said...

LEO : Law Enforcement Officer.

I was wondering.

to The Blonde, it means Let's Eat Out.

jr565 said...

One thing that I wish the defense would show is where did the incident take place, versus where GZ said he followed TM, versus where Travon's place of residence was.
According to to GZ, despite the "stalking" he wasn't more than say a hundred feet from his car when he went back to meet the cops.
How far was TM's residence from the incident?
The defense can easily disprove that any stalking was done by simply putting up a map and show how little Zimmerman actually travelled versus how much TM did, since he got home, then doubled back.

If TM''s residence was right next to the crime scene, then you could see say that perhaps the meeting was happenstance, but if it wasnt that close then you have to explain why TM was at the crime scene and not at his house.

SomeoneHasToSayIt said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
SomeoneHasToSayIt said...

What an agenda-based, oath breaking judge! She's (she!) a complete disgrace.

The mother speculates that it is her son's voice. Testimony allowed.

Defense asks her a "what if it is Zimmerman's voice" question.

State objects on grounds it "calls for speculation".

Judge pauses several seconds (calculating the political, social justice consequences?), and sustains.

That's a fucking outrage. How did this woman judge (An any-means Progressive, I'll wager) get through law school?

edutcher said...

She bent over backwards?

jr565 said...

I saw some of the after trial discussions, and the case for Trayvons case is SO weak. One of the defense advocates kept making the argument (and somebody repeated it earlier on these boards) that it couldn't have been Zimmerman screaming because he said that Trayvon was trying to cover his mouth, and therfore he couldn't scream. So it was a lie.

Which makes no sense if you've ever watched a fight. In a grapple people are punching, trying to grab people trying to put their hand over the other person's face. And the other person is doing things to prevent that action. Like if TM tried to cover his mouth, Zimmerman tries to get his hand off his mouth. So its not as if Zimmerman couldn't scream.

Then I saw the interview that GZ had with Hannity where he told his story.

And he lays it out like a progression. First he describes how TM punched him in the face and he went down. as soon as he went down he said he started screaming for help (because he thought that the cops who were enroute). Then when on the ground TM started bashing his head on the pavement. GZ, while fighting back was trying to shimmy his body so that he could make it over to the grass so his head being smashed against the pavement wouldn't be as painful. And he was still,screaming for help.

According to GZ TM was saying "shut up, shut up" and THEN put his hand over his nose and mouth, and George said it felt like he was trying to suffocate him. And GZ described in the interview how he was trying to get TM's hand off his mouth.

So the expert describing how there was some sort of inconsistensy in the story, or suggesting that it was a lie because he couldn't have screamed because TM's hand would be over his mouth, is either lying deliberately or hasn't listened to the interview.
This is not to say that simply because GZ said what he said that it must be believed. But rather, her argument that his story was inconsistent was completely bogus, and suggested someone who didn't actually watch the interview or look at the evidence. There is no inconsistency and her point is wrong and misleading. Even if you buy the argument that TM was able to cover his mouth so he couldn't scream, he had already screamed multiple times as per his own story.

Nonapod said...

How bad are race relations in this country? Realistically, What are the chances that there will be riots like LA '92 if Zimmerman is acquitted? Or will there be Facebook/Twitter driven flash mob-type riots? I personally have no idea.

Darrell said...

There are two skills every man should have:
(1) know when to speak up
(2) know when to keep your mouth shut.

Mitchell the Bat said...

I'm impressed that there is apparently an entire subculture in the U.S. that can not only invent funny-sounding names but can also give a funny spelling to already well-established names.

America's got talent!

Deirdre Mundy said...

This is really all about immigration reform. Obama will give his black constituents Zimmerman on a platter to make up for the fact that he's about to open the flood gates and ensure that there are even fewer economic opportunities for low-skilled American workers.

If Zimmerman gets off, we enter a Jets v. Sharks scenario, and immigration reform gets ugly......

SomeoneHasToSayIt said...

ironrailsironweights, you wrote your comment as if there is no other possible way to look at it.

How about this. Zimmerman took a hard cold-cock sucker punch to the nose, that dazed and knocked him down. In the couple of seconds it took to gather his senses, Martin was already MMA ground and pounding, essentially against a defenselessness (pinned) man.

At that point, if I were Zimmerman, I would have immediately used my gun. But he did not - perhaps not wanting to kill. So, pinned MMA style, he did the only thing he could - screamed to attract attention, hoping it would either cause Martin to stop and run, or someone to come help.

Looked at that way, Zimmerman is not an ineffective coward, as you unkindly imply, but a fair man giving Martin a chance he doesn't deserve.

edutcher said...

Nonapod said...

How bad are race relations in this country? Realistically, What are the chances that there will be riots like LA '92 if Zimmerman is acquitted? Or will there be Facebook/Twitter driven flash mob-type riots? I personally have no idea.

Race relations were better 50 years ago.

The Community Organizer in Chief has done all he could to make this a cause celebre among blacks and, sad to say, anytime anything like this happens with the prominence it's been given, there have been riots.

Add to that the extreme hostile behavior of black yoots - the knockout game, flash mobs, and the occasional rampages in cities targeting whites (a bad one in Cincy a few years ago) - partly a result of Choomie's stewardship of the economy and its subsequently disastrous unemployment rate among blacks and you have all the ingredients for a Long Hot Summer.

Brennan said...

I heard some commentary that her testimony will heavily influence the jury of women, most of whom are mothers. A mother will know their child's voice.

However, the defense is just going to call George Zimmerman's mother and ask the same thing.

Both mothers claim that voice is their son calling out for help.

What ever will the jury of moms do?

Darrell said...

I read that Zimmerman said he forgot he had his gun on him that night.

ironrailsironweights said...

@SomeoneHasToSayIt:
That scenario might make sense if this were a fight between equals, but it wasn't - Zimmerman was much bigger and stronger.

Peter

Brennan said...

That scenario might make sense if this were a fight between equals, but it wasn't - Zimmerman was much bigger and stronger.

The size matters defense to a jury full of women. Good luck.

CWJ said...

Peter @ 8:55

I don't know, seems to me the object lesson is that if you're going home, then go home. Don't double back and go pick a fight with a stranger.

ricpic said...

Michael said...

Poor woman. She certainly knows the truth. The self recriminations must be constant. And horrible.

That's right. Keep telling yourself she's just like you inside, Michael. Fool!

edutcher said...

ironrailsironweights said...

There are two skills every man should have:
(1) how to throw a punch; and
(2) how to take a punch.

George Zimmerman obviously never learned either skill. His incompetence lead to his being overpowered and beaten by a scrawny teenaged whom he outweighed by at least 40 pound [note: if you think Trayvon was a tough streetfighter just because he was black, you are hopelessly deluded]. Because of his incompetence he had to rely on his gun to save his sorry scrotum, and look what happened.


Incompetence?

Now you're sounding like the UnreasonableTroll.

Not everybody grows up in that kind of culture. Not every society is that violent.

A lot of people in this country think you ain't no man unless you can fight. Others (and I'm not talking Lefties) think knowing how to fight doesn't make you a man.

Do I think defending yourself is a useful skill?

Sure, but I also did my best to avoid places where I might have to use it.

Kind of like defensive driving.

rhhardin said...

There are two skills every man should have:
(1) how to throw a punch; and
(2) how to take a punch.


I held off a boxer in college for 5 minutes using one hand and fencing skills, until he figured out the counter.

He'd never had punches parried before.

NotquiteunBuckley said...

There is a vacuum with a need to be filled having to do with Hispanics fighting with greens, blacks, gays and feminists for the limited power available to Democratics.

There is no need for White Hispanics to fight these fights as it takes the focus away from Democratics in-fighting, which is where we need it to be.

Matthew Sablan said...

Zimmerman wasn't actually that much bigger, and most of his bigger-ness was fat, not muscle. An older, fatter guy gets sucker-punched, and I'm supposed to take this as a lesson that all men should be able to throw down?

Icepick said...

LEO : Law Enforcement Officer.

Duh. I knew it was familiar but couldn't place it. I'd say I need my morning coffee, but I don't drink coffee. Maybe I should start....

And thank you.

jr565 said...

Iron rails weight wrote:
There are two skills every man should have:
(1) how to throw a punch; and
(2) how to take a punch.


Did you make that same statement when Althouse showed the picture of the guy who had his skull caved in? Dude should have learned how to take a punch.
What a dick.
You're essential argument is that GZ is a beta, or a fag, or not a real man, so simply should have accepted his beating.

jr565 said...

"That scenario might make sense if this were a fight between equals, but it wasn't - Zimmerman was much bigger and stronger."
actually TM is taller, and Zimmerman was like 20 pounds heavier, but TM looked lean and muscular, while GZ looked a bit flabby.
And just because someone is smaller doesn't mean they can't kick your ass. Just look at Bruce Lee.

Jay said...

ironrailsironweights said...
There are two skills every man should have:
(1) how to throw a punch; and
(2) how to take a punch.


I absolutely guarantee you that if I jumped out at you in the dark and connected with your nose you would note "take" that punch in any way other than to fall to the ground and not get back up until paramedics arrived.

Your post is a profile in silliness.

Darrell said...

People with something to lose--house, jobs, family--often think twice about getting into a fight. The thought is jail and trouble with the law. Survival isn't really thought about until you face it. Lots of little guys get in all the punches if they don't give a shit. That continues until they meet someone like themselves. Anyone can lose a fight and wind up needing a gun to survive--assuming their opponent is an asshole willing to go all the way. Lucky Zimmerman had one.

Jay said...

Zimmerman was much bigger and stronger.

Hilarious.

ironrailsironweights said...

Do I think defending yourself is a useful skill?
Sure, but I also did my best to avoid places where I might have to use it.


Of course. No one wants to fight, or should want to fight, but that does not mean that we shouldn't know how.
Actually, in Zimmerman's case his refusal to fight may have been the real factor. Even if he had no specific fighting skills I have no doubt that he could have overpowered the smaller and weaker Martin after a struggle. But many men have a visceral repulsion to slamming their fists into other people. Strange as it may sound, firing a gun does not always produce such a repulsion.

By the way, Martin's previous talk about being a "thug 4 life" meant less than nothing. It was childish babbling from someone greatly lacking in maturity and probably having an I.Q. score in the 75 - 85 range.

Peter

Icepick said...

That scenario might make sense if this were a fight between equals, but it wasn't - Zimmerman was much bigger and stronger.

Zimmerman was shorter and outweighed Martin by about 40 pounds. That doesn't mean he was stronger. More likely he was a tub of goo.

ironrailsironweights said...

actually TM is taller, and Zimmerman was like 20 pounds heavier, but TM looked lean and muscular, while GZ looked a bit flabby

Most non-obese young black males look muscular - not because they actually are strong (most of them aren't, not particularly), but because their low body fat makes their muscles stand out. Visible muscular definition requires a low bodyfat percentage.

Peter

jr565 said...

Iron rails brand of prosecution.
Man gay bashed and beaten near senseless, eventually is able to kill his attacker with his gun or his knife. Claims self defense.
Iron rails:The guy is a weakling he should have learned to take a punch better. Case closed.

Or, woman is attacked and assaulted. While attackers on top of her she is able to kill him with her gun.
Iron rails: bitch should have learned ow to take a punch. Case closed.

Matthew Sablan said...

"Of course. No one wants to fight, or should want to fight, but that does not mean that we shouldn't know how."

-- Many people want to fight. They are violent, angry, sad people usually. Or, they fail to think through the situation fully. In this case, all evidence points to MARTIN wanting to fight.

"Actually, in Zimmerman's case his refusal to fight may have been the real factor."

-- So... you're in favor of full acquittal if you think he refused to fight?

"Even if he had no specific fighting skills I have no doubt that he could have overpowered the smaller and weaker Martin after a struggle."

-- Then you're an idiot. The will to fight is a huge thing; it is why you'll see large men intimidated by smaller men and bossed around. Hell, it is why you'll sometimes see fit, tough women abused by men they could break in half. -Will- to fight means a hell of a lot.

"By the way, Martin's previous talk about being a "thug 4 life" meant less than nothing. It was childish babbling from someone greatly lacking in maturity and probably having an I.Q. score in the 75 - 85 range."

-- We have no idea what it means. For this specific case, it really is immaterial though, since we have a witness saying that Martin was on top of and striking Zimmerman. It doesn't matter if Martin saved 32 nuns from a burning bus twenty minutes prior; all that matters is that moment.

eddie willers said...

Martin's previous talk about being a "thug 4 life" meant less than nothing. It was childish babbling from someone greatly lacking in maturity and probably having an I.Q. score in the 75 - 85 range.

The soft bigotry of low expectations.

I, for one, believe Trayvon would have succeeded in his goal of being a thug.

I mean, there was NO_LIMIT to what he could achieve.

jr565 said...

"Even if he had no specific fighting skills I have no doubt that he could have overpowered the smaller and weaker Martin after a struggle"

where are you getting that he was smaller? He was Taller. And how are you determining weakness? You're just making stuff up at this point.

Jay said...

Martin's previous talk about being a "thug 4 life" meant less than nothing.

Or, as Occam's Razor suggests, he was interested in being an actual thug.

eddie willers said...

Most non-obese young black males look muscular - not because they actually are strong (most of them aren't, not particularly), but because their low body fat makes their muscles stand out. Visible muscular definition requires a low bodyfat percentage.

I didn't know Jimmy The Greek still posted here.

AReasonableMan said...

On this particular topic I find myself agreeing with Michael Savage and David Horowitz.

Matthew Sablan said...

Horowitz's article is lame, since he considers "following" a perfectly reason for attacking someone with intent to kill. Didn't bother with the other link.

Jay said...

AReasonableMan said...
On this particular topic I find myself agreeing with Michael Savage


Of course you would agree with this abject stupidity:

Savage laid out his case, saying that the murder could have been avoided, but based on Zimmerman’s gun having a round in the chamber with the safety off, Zimmerman intended “to find some he could shoot or intimidate.”

You don't own or carry a firearm.

Matthew Sablan said...

Take his solutions, by the way: "The Stand Your Ground Law should be rewritten to apply only to home invasions since then it is clear that the intruder is the aggressor and the response is self-defense. Second, Neighborhood Watch guards should not be permitted to conceal and carry."

-- SYG does not need to apply to home invasions since, well, you have nowhere to retreat to in your own home. Likewise, there is no reason to strip the Neighborhood Watch of their constitutional rights. Should we also not allow them to blog? Maybe we should force them to allow police and armed forces to use their home? What other rights are subject to the whims of Horowitz?

Jay said...

One thing is for sure, this Zimmerman trial has brought more stupid people to the Internet than any other public event I can remember.

Jay said...

Second, Neighborhood Watch guards should not be permitted to conceal and carry."

George Zimmerman wasn't out on Neighborhood watch patrolling his neighborhood.

If it weren't for stupidity and false premises, a lot of people would have nothing to at all to say on this Zimmerman trial.

Matthew Sablan said...

Also, was Martin "guiltless of any crime?" There's no way to know that since there has not been any investigation into whether his assault of Zimmerman was illegal or not. Except, you know, for when the police decided, initially, that Zimmerman's self-defense claim was valid. And it only would have been if he were defending himself from an illegal assault. Unless we're assuming a vast conspiracy of liars, Martin illegally attacked Zimmerman. The question now is whether that illegal attack warranted lethal force to defend from.

Matthew Sablan said...

Also: Zimmerman has given an apology, I believe. He has noted that he did not want to kill Martin. We know that it bothers him that that is how the situation played out. The fact Horowitz pretend it has not impacted Zimmerman emotionally is pure falderol.

Palladian said...

ironrailsironweights is very touchy about two subjects: hairy pussies and black men's muscles.

Jay said...

If your knowledge of firearms includes the comically ignorant assertion that someone with "round in the chamber with the safety off" is out to shoot someone, you should probably crawl back to your hole and stop commenting on the matter.

I'd add: Savage has not one utter fucking clue how the safety on Zimmerman's firearm worked.

Matthew Sablan said...

Finally, Zimmerman is not a racist. Zimmerman stood up for a black man who was abused by the police. The 'toxicity of race' or whatever Horowitz is blabbering on about would only matter if Zimmerman were a racist.

He is not. He has never been implicated as one. Not a single credible witness has brought anything to light to damage his character. To say he is a racist is slander.

Jay said...

Martin "guiltless of any crime"

Completely irrelevant as a matter of law.

Where do these idiots come from and why do they feel the need to comment?

jr565 said...

Second, Neighborhood Watch guards should not be permitted to conceal and carry."

you're allowed to conceal carry in Florida. And even though Zimmerman was on the neighborhood watch he was off duty when he had the altercation with Zimmerman, meaning he wasnt carrying a gun in that capacity.

Zimmerman has said that he didn't carry his gun when working. To be honest, I'm not sure if that meant when working at his actual job, or when working as a neighborhood watch.

But its immaterial since he wasnt working as a neighborhood watchman that night.

Matthew Sablan said...

Also, the "God's plan" comment is being twisted. I have done a lot of things badly, but would I change what I did? With 20/20 hindsight, maybe. But, that's an unfair way to judge things. I wonder if anyone is asking: "Should Martin have done things differently? Like, gone home when he was there instead of coming back? Like, not attacking people on the street, or at least, not mounting them and continuing the attack after they were defeated?"

Martin and Zimmerman both made questionable decisions; only one took an action that is on its face illegal (assault).

edutcher said...

ironrailsironweights said...

Do I think defending yourself is a useful skill?
Sure, but I also did my best to avoid places where I might have to use it.


Of course. No one wants to fight, or should want to fight, but that does not mean that we shouldn't know how.
Actually, in Zimmerman's case his refusal to fight may have been the real factor. Even if he had no specific fighting skills I have no doubt that he could have overpowered the smaller and weaker Martin after a struggle. But many men have a visceral repulsion to slamming their fists into other people. Strange as it may sound, firing a gun does not always produce such a repulsion.


A couple of points on that score.

It's pretty well accepted that most men are not born fighters.

Most men have to be taught not only to fight, but to develop an aggressive spirit. Those who have that aggressive spirit go one step further, going into the paratroops or something.

The other is some people actively avoid that kind of trouble. Everybody's heard of Wyatt Earp, but not his brother, James, who is described as having "a passive nature" and was very happy just being a bartender.

Matthew Sablan said...

Also, there may not have been quite a rush to exonerate Zimmerman if, well, the initial investigation didn't basically clear him, and it wasn't until the Powers That Be demanded their pound of flesh that charges were brought.

Tank said...

Jay said...

One thing is for sure, this Zimmerman trial has brought more stupid people to the Internet than any other public event I can remember.

Why limit this to the internet?

I can't believe (OK, I do) the nonsense I've heard on TV and radio. It's like people haven't noticed that the trial is half over and most of the pro/Martin themes have been contradicted or undermined (during the State's case !).

traditionalguy said...

The show is a fine detail of all facts intended to show the black community that they are more than gypsies Ok to be hunted and killed as trespassers by vigilantes.

It is working just right. z will walk for the sole factor that he hit his head on the concrete walk. That created self defense as all can now see.

Refusing to even charge Z was wrong then and wrong today.

Matthew Sablan said...

So, what have we learned from Reasonable's link? That there's a reason I don't read Horowitz, and neither should you.

Lauderdale Vet said...

AReasonableMan,

1) These concealed carry guns are designed for you to safely carry one in the pipe. It's how they were meant to be used.

2) He was carrying a DAO Kel-Tec PF9, right? I don't believe that gun has a frame safety. So where did you even read that?

Icepick said...

I didn't know Jimmy The Greek still posted here.

You're dating yourself by a few decades there.

Of course, I'm doing the say by knowing what you're talking about.

Matthew Sablan said...

"It is working just right. z will walk for the sole factor that he hit his head on the concrete walk. That created self defense as all can now see.

Refusing to even charge Z was wrong then and wrong today."

-- Those facts were apparent the night of the attack. Are you saying EVERYONE who MIGHT have committed a crime needs to go to trial? "Well, 20 people were on the street when the shot was fired. Better bring them all in for questioning, as well as the man who claims to have been in Florida at the time, just to be sure."

Icepick said...

Michael Savage, from ARM's link: So where does Michael Savage fit in? I’m an independent observer and I call them as I see them, and I think Zimmerman committed what he’s being charged with: manslaughter.

Well, given that Zimmerman is being charged with Second Degree Murder, Savage is already going off the rails.

He then proceeds to make points that are factually incorrect about the firearm in the case, as well as making inferences that make no sense.

FAIL.

Jay said...

Why limit this to the internet?

Good point!

I haven't bothered with much of the legal commentary from the cable news.

I don't see much point in watching this trial any further.
It is quite clear there are no facts or evidence in support of the charge.

Michael K said...

I saw some of the after trial discussions, and the case for Trayvons case is SO weak. One of the defense advocates kept making the argument (and somebody repeated it earlier on these boards) that it couldn't have been Zimmerman screaming because he said that Trayvon was trying to cover his mouth, and therfore he couldn't scream. So it was a lie.

Which makes no sense if you've ever watched a fight. In a grapple people are punching, trying to grab people trying to put their hand over the other person's face. And the other person is doing things to prevent that action. Like if TM tried to cover his mouth, Zimmerman tries to get his hand off his mouth. So its not as if Zimmerman couldn't scream.

Then I saw the interview that GZ had with Hannity where he told his story.

And he lays it out like a progression. First he describes how TM punched him in the face and he went down. as soon as he went down he said he started screaming for help (because he thought that the cops who were enroute). Then when on the ground TM started bashing his head on the pavement. GZ, while fighting back was trying to shimmy his body so that he could make it over to the grass so his head being smashed against the pavement wouldn't be as painful. And he was still,screaming for help.

According to GZ TM was saying "shut up, shut up" and THEN put his hand over his nose and mouth, and George said it felt like he was trying to suffocate him. And GZ described in the interview how he was trying to get TM's hand off his mouth.

So the expert describing how there was some sort of inconsistensy in the story, or suggesting that it was a lie because he couldn't have screamed because TM's hand would be over his mouth, is either lying deliberately or hasn't listened to the interview.
This is not to say that simply because GZ said what he said that it must be believed. But rather, her argument that his story was inconsistent was completely bogus, and suggested someone who didn't actually watch the interview or look at the evidence. There is no inconsistency and her point is wrong and misleading. Even if you buy the argument that TM was able to cover his mouth so he couldn't scream, he had already screamed multiple times as per his own story.

7/5/13, 9:03 AM
Blogger Nonapod said...

" How bad are race relations in this country? Realistically, What are the chances that there will be riots like LA '92 if Zimmerman is acquitted? Or will there be Facebook/Twitter driven flash mob-type riots? I personally have no idea."

In Chicago, every weekend, there are "flash mobs" of black teenagers who run around north Michigan Avenue, a shopping and tourist area, and attack whites for no reason other than their skin color. Doctors and nurses from Northwestern medical center have been attacked as they go out for lunch.

The race riots are going on and the news does not report it.

What will get reported is white on black violence but that hasn't happened.

Yet.

jr565 said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Matthew Sablan said...

... Wow. I'm glad I skipped Savage's link then. I think my brain would've cried itself to sweet, sweet dreamland.

Jay said...

In Chicago, every weekend, there are "flash mobs" of black teenagers who run around

They do it in Philadelphia too.

Jay said...

I'm going to go out on a limb and suggest that when you need to emphasize to your readers you're some sort of "Independent thinker" you're really just a mealy mouthed dope.

Icepick said...

ironrailsironweights is very touchy about two subjects: hairy pussies and black men's muscles.

I could care less about black men's muscles, but I do have an interest in hairy pussies. I mean, how hairy are we talking? I've seen some seventies era porn where the actors and actresses could have used their pubes for comb-overs. Ugh. I'm not saying that completely shorn is the only way to go, but some basic grooming is much preferred.

Icepick said...

... Wow. I'm glad I skipped Savage's link then. I think my brain would've cried itself to sweet, sweet dreamland.

Nothing wrong with sweet dreamland, but yeah, the Savage stuff was just wrong.

jr565 said...

Michael savage is a go to conservative when you want to prove that conservatives are crazy, or when a liberal wants to make a point where a conservative agrees with their point.

In this case though, he can't even get the charge right. GM was not charged with manslaughter. Perhaps Michael should do a bit more reading before opining on a case.

JackOfVA said...

Carrying a semiautomatic with an empty chamber and loaded magazine is sometimes called "Israeli style" carry based upon a belief that is the standard used in Israel by police.

Regardless of what it's called, Zimmerman's case shows why it's a foolish way to carry as it requires racking the slide to chamber a round. The normal way to rack the slide requires both hands, one to hold the slide and one to hold the frame. While it's possible to rack the slide one handed, e.g., jam the slide against your belt to hold it in place, racking the slide in the middle of having your head slammed against the sidewalk is going to be a mite more difficult than one might wish, at least if you are "slamee."

Revolvers, the historical police pistol, never had external safeties (I know, a purist will point to the one or two revolvers that were built with external safeties, but those are 0.001% of the revolvers built and carried) and also were normally carried with all chambers loaded. (Yet another historical footnote - some old revolvers were carried with the hammer on an empty chamber because they could discharge if dropped. That problem was fixed a long time ago.)

So, a semiautomatic without an external safety and carried with a round chambered is the equivalent of a traditional revolver.

Also, I read that the medical examiner testified today that TM had grass stains on his pants knees and that the body had no signs of abrasions other than on his knuckles. Both of these are completely consistent with Zimmerman's defense that TM was on top beating GZ.

eddie willers said...

I'm not saying that completely shorn is the only way to go, but some basic grooming is much preferred.

During the 70's I dated a blond who's carpet matched the drapes.

We should all be so lucky.

Jay said...

The ME just imploded the state's case.

I've never seen anything like this before.

Wow.

Jay said...

The medical examiner said he has no memory of the autopsy in this high profile case. He remembers zero

President-Mom-Jeans said...

This has turned into even more of a farce.

This medical examiner is looney tunes. This is a circus not a trial. The judge has completely lost control of her courtroom.

This is slapstick nonsense. I think the state is just incompetent on top of this dog of a case that should never have been filed.

avwh said...

Is FLA the only state with an incompetent electoral system and an incompetent legal system?

Sure looks like it from this trial.

President-Mom-Jeans said...

Anyone who thinks Zimmerman should be found guilty and who followed this case at all should never be allowed on a jury, never allowed to vote, never allowed to reproduce, and probably not allowed any objects sharper than a pillow.

It would be funny if the power of the state wasn't being used in a political show trial with a man's life at stake.

jr565 said...

jay wrote:

The ME just imploded the state's case.

I've never seen anything like this before.

Wow.

what happened? I didn't even hear anything about this yet. Then again, if it was as bad as you say, I can totally understand why the media wouldn't report it.

Icepick said...

From the Orlando Sentinel's coverage of the case today:

On cross examination, [Dr. Shiping Bao, an associate medical examiner] confirmed that Trayvon's hands were not bagged at the shooting scene to preserve evidence. He said he didn't remember the autopsy beyond what's in his notes, and said the teenager's clothes would have been put in paper bags -- not plastic.

On Wednesday, a Florida Department of Law Enforcement DNA analyst testified that the FDLE received Trayvon's clothes in a plastic bag, which could have degraded any DNA evidence on them.

Bao testified in court today that bagging wet evidence in plastic would be a firable offense.

Icepick said...

The medical examiner said he has no memory of the autopsy in this high profile case. He remembers zero

When the autopsy was done, it wasn't a high profile case. It was a "piece a shit" case destined to not even be brought to court. It only became a high profile case later.

Seriously, this case got very little local reportage when it happened. The media was more interested in a riot at Florida Mall over new shoes than they were in this case. Really, it was a whole lot of nothing until the racial "injustice" industry got a hold of it.

avwh said...

And the "racial injustice" industry would never have touched it if Zimmerman's last name was Lopez or Chavez.

jr565 said...

Icepick wrote:
"When the autopsy was done, it wasn't a high profile case. It was a "piece a shit" case destined to not even be brought to court. It only became a high profile case later.

Seriously, this case got very little local reportage when it happened. The media was more interested in a riot at Florida Mall over new shoes than they were in this case. Really, it was a whole lot of nothing until the racial "injustice" industry got a hold of it."

but the racial injustice industry got hold of it pretty quickly, if I remember correctly. So you'd probably realize, pretty quickly if you watched the news, that you did an autopsy on the guy who was killed was "Trayvon Martin"
I could see not remembering if someone mentioned an insignificant case from 20 years ago, and asked you to provide details. But this is still current.

I don't want to say that its impossible tht he didn't forget (maybe he doesn't watch the news). But it does stretch credulity.

Steve Koch said...

Matthew Sablan said...
"...pure falderol."

Falderol is an awesome word.

eddie willers said...

Falderol is an awesome word.

Balderdash!

Jay said...

jr565:

The ME refused to testify about the activities of those working under him. Which is bizarre since it is standard practice, he got really combative and the judge told him at least 5 times to stop talking over the lawyers (Dr. Bao keeps talking even though he's not been asked a question).

He was then asked about what he remembered from the autopsy, he said nothing but he had notes. Because he cannot remember performing this autopsy. He was reading from his notes on that then tried to keep attorneys from looking at them....West on cross asked to see the notes and he said "no"

He also started rambling about memory loss which I couldn't follow at all.

Trial lawyers on Twitter are basically having a field day and to say this guy is a loose cannon is an understatement.

Jay said...

West: "Was that other step done?"

Bao: "I don't remember."

WTF!!?

Jay said...

As a point of clarification: Judge Nelson said both sides get to review Crazy Bao's notes and they broke for lunch.

Darrell said...

the "racial injustice" industry

A bit after the story started to get National press, I remember it coming out that the DNC had selected this case--using sources such as Kos. They were looking for something to fire up Black voters like they had used to fire up single women voters with their Sandra Fluke bullshit. The Dems were worried--not that Black voters would vote for Romney--but that Black voters might not go out of their way to vote, if it wre raining or something. They got a wakeup call when Herman Cain was running and a lot of Black people polled said that they felt they had more in common with Cain than Barack Obama. Ideally the DNC wanted something akin to those Black church burnings during Clinton's time. Well, with people like Kos, they chose the Trayvon Martin shooting based solely on the Zimmerman name. Someone got ahold of some of the notes (emails) that flew around about Zimmerman being a transplanted NYC Jew--the type that jumps to the subway car ceiling when a "brown-skinned" person taps them on the shoulder to give them the glove they dropped.

Why do people forget what is learned at the beginning of things like this and Benghazi? The blame for this abortion goes to the DNC. Thye should get all the bills so far and those if rioting ever happens.

Revenant said...

The ME just imploded the state's case.

How so? Predictably, the news sites are only mentioning that the ME said Martin "suffered".

Jay said...

Revenant,

Ann has a new post up on Dr. Bao.

EMD said...

I could care less about black men's muscles, but I do have an interest in hairy pussies. I mean, how hairy are we talking? I've seen some seventies era porn where the actors and actresses could have used their pubes for comb-overs. Ugh. I'm not saying that completely shorn is the only way to go, but some basic grooming is much preferred.

I once wrote a comedy sketch about a casting director looking for a woman with copious amounts of pubic hair.

"I want it to look like Dr. J fell asleep in her lap."

Cedarford said...

Noted that a huge problem for the remaining guilty whites, and hopefully one day the progressive jewish media masters - is that more and more of them are being pounded or worse by roving mobs of blacks. Or have friends who are victims of black thugs on the prowl.

Rasmussen had a poll that seems to indicate that the effect of these attacks targeting whites, asians and hispanics is that all races agree blacks are more racist than any other group. Even blacks.

I think black racists and their enablers are really mistaken that a flood more of violence. burning, and looting will draw instant sympathy and oodles of goodies to angry blacks like it did 50 years ago, even in the LA riots just over 20 years back.

The progressive jews and the remaining guilty whites cling to the 60s narative. Still tout it in media and academia resources they control.
But in most people's minds, their "Narrative" was obsolete decades ago.
The problem is not a Zimmerman or two, it is blacks causing casualties to blacks by the tens of thousands that we the taxpayers pay medical, recovery, and disability costs for. A majority being blacks, but over 40% involving black violence towards other races - tens of thousands.

While white on black, asian on black, and to a lesser exent, hispanic on black violence is rare.

Critical in this is the nations largest minority - now Hispanics. They have been nearly as many targeted for violence by black thugs as white. None of them feel a shred of "hispanic guilt" for what happened 150 years ago or even in the 50s, before most of them and their ancestors went North to take advantage of business owners thirst for cheap illeal labor and suppressing American citizen wages.

William said...

Early on, it was claimed that Zimmerman's "fucking punks" statement was actually "fucking coons". They cleaned up the audio and established that he was saying "fucking punks" but that was what was originally claimed. Some commentators on television were quite vehement in saying that they were sure he said "fucking coons". These same commentators are now quite certain that Trayvon's mother is the most reliable witness as to whose voice this is on tape.

Steve Koch said...

traditionalguy said...
"The show is a fine detail of all facts intended to show the black community that they are more than gypsies Ok to be hunted and killed as trespassers by vigilantes."

Murder wise, the black community should first focus on reducing their own horrendous murders committed rate (about an order of magnitude worse than the white murder rate).

"z will walk for the sole factor that he hit his head on the concrete walk."

Seriously, what is wrong with you? The back of Z's head was damaged cuz Martin was grounding and pounding Z while Z was laying on his back on the concrete sidewalk.

Darrell said...

Ace of Spades had a rundown of the Media's tampering with those audio tapes--and it had more than two versions of what was said. In some cases the audio had been altered. The bottom line is I don't think that "fucking" is in the real final cleaned-up version. I don't see a search box at Ace, so I can't give a link. It appeared in the last couple of weeks.

kentuckyliz said...

Earwitness testimony by neighbors said they heard yells or screams for help, then silence, then more yelps. Corroborates GZ.

Thanks for playing.

Jupiter said...

" Blogger Michael said...

Poor woman. She certainly knows the truth. The self recriminations must be constant. And horrible."

Actually, I think she has convinced herself that Trayvon was a "good boy", so it must have been him screaming. Never mind that the only eye-witness walked out on his porch and saw Martin on top of a screaming man.

Tracy Martin may realize that his son tried to mau-mau the wrong cracker. He originally said it wasn't Trayvon screaming, but then Crump and Mom set him straight on the party line. Notice they did not put him on the stand, however.

He used to be a Crip in East Saint Louis.
http://tinyurl.com/lhdn3t6

You can bet he knows about the KnockOut game, and the importance of landing that first punch. He probably taught Trayvon.