"King Abdullah was laid to rest in an unmarked grave in a modest cemetery in Riyadh. It's all in keeping with the traditions of Wahhabism, a strict branch of Sunni Islam practiced in Saudi Arabia."
January 25, 2015
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57 comments:
Wahhabism, the source of Islamic terror.
Looks like all those people are standing around kitty litter.
I am Laslo.
It's a sign of progress that they don't bury his servants in there with him.
Hey, just like the Islamist French Charlie Hebdo guy.
Would it kill you to say something respectful?
"Would it kill you to say something respectful?"
What was there to respect about the man and the laws of the land he governed? Public beheadings over morals? Flogged bloggers? Beaten women drivers? Death Penalty for homosexual acts?
I instead respect the citizens who risked their lives to simply protest him and his rules.
I am Laslo.
Oh, something respectful. My bad.
Abdullah was even a stranger ally than Stalin
I am saddened that a man who had the position and ability to create great change in a land of horror chose not to do so.
Humane Motion.
I am Laslo.
It's probably the only thing I could ever respect out of Wahhabism.
P.S. The reCAPTCHA is ridiculously difficult to read. It took six tries just to post this comment.
If president Obama was trying to pretend to be a secret Muslim, and pretending to help the spread of Islam and weaken the West....what would he be doing differetly?
The real reason is they are afraid people would dig him up and abuse his corpse. They chop live people's heads off, you know? Why not chop up a dead one so he could never rise up from the bottom of his stinking well.
Btw, why the hell should we be respectful to a tyrant? How respectful was he to his people? He was as benign and as deserved respect as Saddam.
King Abdullah did attempt to modernize his country, yes unsuccessfully, but he made the attempt.
Will his successor try to carry forward any of his ideas?
Be respectful towards the man whose regime and country is the principal builder of jihadist madrassas globally?
It's all cute that they pretend to be our ally, claim they are with us fighting the fight ... but their sect is the central recruitment center and they spend vast sums annually spreading it.
It was only living in the Islamic world when I realized the Wahhabi will take any Sunni imam from the tiniest hamlet anywhere in the globe and bring him to Hajj and some `retraining' to their austere, 10th century ways.
Give it a generation and you have all the unemployable, uneducated and extremist young men you need to fight the Great Satan.
Twenty years ago Pakistan elected a female Prime Minister. That won't happen for generations now, not after the educational system got overtaken by Saudi madrassas.
No tears from me for anyone in the House of Saud.
"Ann Althouse said...
Would it kill you to say something respectful?"
It would kill you to not, in the land of King Abdullah.
Compared to the typical state funeral for a king the simplicity and austere dignity is breathtaking to behold. When Elizabeth ll dies someday they'll be pipers piping and cavalry and parades of nobles bearing swords and what-the-hell-all else non-stop for two weeks at least. Go figger?
I watched the video, and I was struck by the dignity and the coherence of the religious beliefs about burial. Do not worship idols. Don't make a god out of a man. The king is buried like anyone else.
I don't see what good you are doing by reacting to anything about Islam in terms of the worst things associated with it. It would be more helpful, I think, to recognize what is good and show some respect. People are not going to abandon their religious traditions, so why not encourage the positive trends?
And you, who come from a different tradition, diminish yourself when you stress what you see that is bad in others. Why not try to make yourself better? Set an example, and then others might look to you to be inspired toward the good.
That is what both post-9/11 Presidents have chosen to do. They did it as Americans, and I think we can also say that they did it as Christians.
There's a possibility that within the spectrum of Saudi society, he was a liberal......The hidden iman is a feature of the Shiites. I always thought Obama was a Sunni.
"And you, who come from a different tradition, diminish yourself when you stress what you see that is bad in others."
So:
1."The king is buried like anyone else. "
2.The King presided over the Death Penalty for homosexual acts.
I shall not stress the second fact. In fact, I will ignore it if you like. I feel more inspirational already.
I am Laslo.
Both Bush and Obama are good people because they speak ignorantly, stupidly, and falsely about Islamists?
Obama is hardly a Christian. He doesn't go to church regularly and like he believed what the Reverend Wright was preaching.
I watched the video, and I was struck by the dignity and the coherence of the religious beliefs about burial. Do not worship idols. Don't make a god out of a man. The king is buried like anyone else.
As a Protestant, son of Puritans, I am somehow moved by this view of Islam.
I was brought up in a church that had no human depictions in the church, except for pictures of retired pastors in the coffee room. My Roman Catholic partner doesn't quite got it. It is iconage, and a glorifying of humans at the expense of God (or Allah). I have always had a sneaking admiration of the more puritanical strands of Sunni Islam for the same reason. A lot of the Shi'a seem more like Catholics, with human depictions galore, shrines to this or that holy person - their version of Catholic saints.
Thinking the best of somebody instead of the worst was Augustine's definition of charity, rather than today's giving money.
Which is how it comes to be soul-saving.
I doubt Islam is about to take it up. Their charity is strategic. Free madrasses.
We need a 501(c)3 exemption for the Augustinian form, by the way.
It would be more helpful, I think, to recognize what is good and show some respect
1) Ok..you start....what is good about Islam? Is it the endorsement of slavery? It's intolerance for others? I know, the way they treat women as property? Their unwillingness to live peacefully among others?
2) Why should you show respect for an ideology that has promised to eliminate you, and is actively attempting to do so?
Would you ask us to show respect at Hitler's funeral? Pol Pot's ?
The Pope is still the most humble man in the world, as far as the competition goes.
And you, who come from a different tradition, diminish yourself when you stress what you see that is bad in others. Why not try to make yourself better? Set an example, and then others might look to you to be inspired toward the good
The saddest thing is that you, and women like you, will still be talking like this as you put on your burka.
Nothing in his life became him like the leaving it. (Respectful enough?)
Um, because they are weird?
Seriously, they think freedom is blasphemy and protecting the rights of individuals akin to elevating them to god-like status.
Only God is respected in Islam. People are simply potential war booty or negotiating chips. Human life or its commemoration is a distraction to their brand of worship.
from wiki:
Saudi Arabia has a criminal justice system based on a hardline and literal form of Sharia law reflecting a particular state-sanctioned interpretation of Islam.
The death penalty... ...can be carried out by beheading with a sword,[9] or more rarely by firing squad, and sometimes by stoning.
Stoning: I guess the The king is buried like anyone else," but the sizing and timing of the stones might differ.
I am Laslo.
I watched the video, and I was struck by the dignity and the coherence of the religious beliefs about burial. Do not worship idols. Don't make a god out of a man. The king is buried like anyone else.
I don't see what good you are doing by reacting to anything about Islam in terms of the worst things associated with it. It would be more helpful, I think, to recognize what is good and show some respect. People are not going to abandon their religious traditions…
Lol. Look at BlogAdmin go Full Metal Islam on everyone!
Yeah, when they mandate death for apostasy I don't doubt that people won't "abandon" their religious traditions. Whether or not they truly believe them however or don't still wish for the West that they immigrate into to remain enlightened and critical enough to help reform them however is a different matter.
I'm not against working with some theoretical "positive" trend. I'd just like to know what it is. As it stands, the evidence for curbing the power of one of the most repressive and tyrannical monarchs on account of their burial practices seems quite slim.
But hey, if that works for you, go for it! I don't see how it's working for Muslims. Or us. But maybe I'm less into austerity and masochism for their own sake.
The only theological issues of note in Islam are taqiyya, lesser jihad, dhimmi, dar al Harb, apostasy penalties and the veneration of Warlord-Prophet Muhammad as an ideal character. Tackle those and you have a religion potentially compatible with modern civilization. All the other stuff is a distraction. If it's doing any good for anyone, no one's seeing it.
Total coherence for its own sake gets you Maoism, Stalinism, Islam and I suppose Althouse-ism. Don't pretend that life isn't supposed to be a messy and often disorganized and haphazard process. But hey, if that offends you, there's always a blander, more unifying and PURE existence available. 72 virgins optional.
The worst tyrants and totalitarian ideologies were all about their idea of purity in some form. The necessary messiness of humanity, for them, is what got in the way. Don't fall for it.
While you're busy appreciating the coherent austerity of monarchical corpse obscurity in Islam, don't forget that the culture that advanced our rights the most, the United Kingdom, probably did more to protect kings and queens and titles and heraldry than any other surviving in Western civilization today.
Appreciating Saudi monarchical corpse obscurity might satisfy an American impulse to demean the king as much as possible, but Thomas Jefferson felt the same way about beheading French monarchs. It's an overkill that ends up ultimately threatening the cause of true liberty.
Ann Althouse said...
Would it kill you to say something respectful?
Where's the fun in that?
He is an ex-shiek.
NOooo. He's just havin' a kip.
Wahhabism, the source of Islamic terror.
I call bullshit. If the King really was supporting terrorism then why did Obama bow to him and Bush kiss him?
When JFK Jr. died, a person who was aware of my political leanings asked me what I thought of the incident. I hemmed and hawed a bit and they said, "Another registered Democrat bites the dust, huh Chris?".
I wouldn't go that far. But the tragedy of death and the dignity of the internment add not one tiny jot of merit or humanity to the deceased's deeds in life.
"I call bullshit. If the King really was supporting terrorism then why did Obama bow to him and Bush kiss him?"
Obama sucks Muzzie ass and Bush is a friendly guy. Really, this isn't rocket science.
You have to respect a man that has billions of dollars hidden away in Europe and hundreds of family members living the high life under his support and protection and just wants to teach Mohammed's Message until it rules the world...Obama bowed to that.
And then there was Chris Kyle who said they were savages at heart. Whom should I trust????
Reality check: The Alqaeda are Saudi Arabian Sunni attack forces. Bin Laden was from a high up and powerful part of King Saud's tribal family. They want this dead guy's stuff. And the half brother in charge is mentally defective from old age.
Is it humble to make an elaborate show of humility?
R&B at 11:10:
I agree. With the qualification (or addition) that there's a lot more to Islam than Wahhabism.
My law partner grew up in a devoutly Muslim family. He married an even more devout Roman Catholic. They had pre-marital counseling from both the priest and the imam. The imam told my partner that he was obligated, not only to tolerate his wife's religious practice, but to encourage it. So he's gone to Mass with her every Sunday since they were married more than twenty years ago.
I'm a Catholic with close relatives who are priests. I think it's unlikely that many priests would give the same advice the imam did.
So, hypothetically, if President Obama were a devout Muslim, his Imam would encourage him to go to church with Michelle.
Or imams, I suppose. That imams is probably not typical, but there's room for him in Islam.
Ann writes "People are not going to abandon their religious traditions, so why not encourage the positive trends?"
In reality, people abandon their traditions, religious or otherwise, all the time when presented with something better. Sadly, Arabia of the Saud Family allows no other viewpoints. No freedom of religion. No freedom of the press. No freedom of assembly. No jury trials. No search warrants. Basically, no rights except that which exists at the whim of the royals.
(Incidentally, Arabia of the Sauds is a more precise translation of the country's name, for that nation is the property the Saudi tribe, which takes its cut directly off the top of the nation's income.)
Lots of Muslims, including those living in Saudi Arabia, would like to practice their local, traditional Islamic beliefs, but those are circumscribed by what the Saudi family allows. Of course, if you're not Muslim, you must worship in secret. If you are caught--and you are not wealthy or well-connected, you'll be imprisoned, tortured, worse. If you're a Muslim and are daft enough to convert to Christianity, you won't have long to live.
The King's actual title is "Custodian of the Two Holy Mosques." And, of course, they are in cities where only Muslims may venture. One cannot help but become speechless and appalled after reading the history of the founding of Islam, supposedly a religion that 'perfects' Christianity and Judaism. We are supposed to believe that Jesus, who never harmed a fly, is superceded by a warrior who ordered the beheadings of hundreds of prisoners (mostly Jews), who approved of torture, and who enslaved hundreds, if not thousands, of women and children, and who took as his wife a child.
The King of Arabia of the Sauds is the person who is "custodian" of all that peace and love. And, of course, there is no exegesis in Islam as Christians know it, because the Qu'ran is the perfect word of Allah, and, thus, there can be no reformation. The religion is incompatible with democracy because of its essential intolerance. It's a pretty damn scary problem, and nice thoughts about a deceased theocratic tribal monarch won't help a bit.
And, yes, there are some highly westernized Muslims who are equally horrified, but they are a tiny minority.
@ Scott.
What I was trying to say in my last post is that my partner's imam is probably not typical. But Islam includes people like him. And he's not some oddball, but a rather distinguished clergyman.
@buster: No I understand.
Would it kill you to say something respectful?
hmm...perhaps dancing in the streets, shouting death to Saudi Arabia, would be appropriate?
It's how they usually respond when an important American dies.
Why do the Althouses of the world insist we respect Islam when it refuses to respect us?
Why do they demand that we co-exist with Islam, when Islam refuses to co-exist with us?
I'm happy to recognise the real religious sentiment amongst the Saudis, and the austerity of the burial rites is wonderful to behold, having seen the mawkish excesses that sometimes attend Christian funerals in these latter days. (Although the WSJ video must have something wrong: if the cemetery was built just for the princes of the royal house, I doubt that there are too many commoners interred there.) And of course in person one would be properly respectful, whatever ones own opinions about Islam: but I don't see why, in this forum and at this distance, we need to overlook the many evils supported and tolerated by the Saudi monarch, requiescat in pace.
And, Professor, of course people abandon their religious traditions! I suppose you were thinking specifically about the Saudis in their current circumstances of mourning and transition. Of course it is much easier to do so if one doesn't face a potential capital sentence for apostasy.
"Why the Saudi King Was Buried in an Unmarked Grave.""
To keep people from peeing on it?
"Ann Althouse said...
Would it kill you to say something respectful?"
Tyrants don't deserve respect.
May the burden of Islam be lightened on the shoulders of his people for his passing.
The best I can do.
Why do the Althouses of the world insist we respect Islam when it refuses to respect us?
Respect is missing the point. In Islam, it's all about hierarchy, much like in Catholicism. (See buster's comment). Except the hierarchy in their case is very simplified. First, comes the ineffable essence of Allah, and below that, every (non-"hypocrite"/munafiqun) Muslim. That disclaimer is a big one, as it's what gives Muslims unrestricted license to kill all the other Muslims they feel aren't "pure" enough for their own interpretation of it. And below the Muslim community (sunna), all us kafirs (infidels). So it's a hierarchy of killing all the way on down, which was an important way to spread religion among tribalist bandits in 7th century Arabia. Prohibiting killing or stealing or raping or any other decent moral code would have been too drastic a reform. The best they could do was to instead just say that Allah is everyone's master, but above everyone, are the Muslims. A coherent and simple hierarchy if ever there was one.
Why do they demand that we co-exist with Islam, when Islam refuses to co-exist with us?
Because their religion requires them to believe that they are better than us and are entitled to eventually dominate us once jihad removes the strife ("fitna") of dar al Harb (the non-Muslim governments) from the world. At that point, dar al Islam (all Muslim governments) will unite the world under Islamic law.
You see, it's all very coherent. Just the Althouse admires it.
Rights are messy things!
We need coherence!
@Althouse, respect is earned. What exactly has this king done to deserve respect?
As another commenter noted the grave is unmarked for among other reasons so no one will piss on it.
The Shia have shrines and mosques dedicated to former leaders. The Sunnis believe this leads to idolatry. This one of the differences that lead them to want to kill one another.
Althouse's call for "respect" for the burial custom of a dead tyrant baffles me. This was a man who dedicated his life and rule as the complete antithesis of the Western liberal culture that nurtured her and informs the very core of everything she holds dear.
That sort of irrational, emotional attitude beggars belief. Can Althouse not summon up enough rough imagination to understand how much of a tinker's damn that corpse in its eloquently plain grave would have had in life as Jalcoh is tossed off a high tower in some begotten Middle Eastern pisshole simply for his sexuality?
"Respect?" Really?
I agree with Althouse: Burying the king in an unmarked grave is a good tradition.
Also: "Triumph Of The Will" was a great documentary.
Is that respectful enough of people I disagree with?
Althouse's not insubstantial intellect is clobbered again by a shallow emotional, illogical notion that is typical of the liberal mind.
Rhythm and Balls said...
People are simply potential war booty or negotiating chips. Human life or its commemoration is a distraction to their brand of worship.
1/25/15, 10:52 AM
Monty, I bust chops for your lefty impulses, but I will admit that every so often you get up on your hind legs and talk like a man.
Althouse is like any woman, she adores a fascist. At heart she wants to be dragged by the hair into some cave and raped till she learns to like it.
Unlike a lot of folks here, I don't have an immediate hate on for the late Abdullah. He was an anti-Semitic obscurantist barbarian, but he wasn't nearly as mad as some of his brothers and nephews, and he was *our* anti-Semitic barbarian. Blaming him for the savagery of Saudi "justice" is rather beside the point - if he had intervened, he probably would have been assassinated by a relative inside of a week. His ancestors fought a bloody war against the ancestors of ISIS/al Queda, the Ikhuwan or Islamic Brotherhood, who had been their storm-troopers in driving out the Hashemites and founding the Saud kingdom. Abdullah, like his predecessors, was a pragmatic herder of homicidal savages; this limited his range of action. It also meant that you shouldn't hold him or his inheritors any closer than you have to, because they are barbarians in tenuous control of savages. I would never, ever set foot in Saudi Arabia, and I've been to Beirut.
Still? Giving the man "respect" just because our betters tell us to is aristo bullshit. He was still a tyrannical barbarian.
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